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Rebel Aces II?


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#61 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:35 PM

...what you're left with is a ship that is designed around the secondary weapons it carries. Torps are broken in ways that have nothing to do with the y-wing specifically, so that leaves turrets as the only design space for it to occupy.


You're right that it's a ship that relies heavily on its secondary weapons (and pilot skills, in the case of Dutch) to remain relevant. Accordingly, I'd expect an Aces-style content refresh to build on that role by expanding the list of options for a Y-wing's secondary weapons.

…which is, more or less, exactly what WAAAGH said. Did you mean to contradict him? Because actually you just sort of underscored his point.

Edited by Vorpal Sword, 22 July 2014 - 10:35 PM.


#62 iPeregrine

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:40 PM

You're right that it's a ship that relies heavily on its secondary weapons (and pilot skills, in the case of Dutch) to remain relevant. Accordingly, I'd expect an Aces-style content refresh to build on that role by expanding the list of options for a Y-wing's secondary weapons.


But that's not changing or expanding the y-wing's role, it's just giving it a different weapon (kind of like a z-95 can take ion missiles or assault missiles). It's still either going to deliver torps as cheaply as possible, or fly circles around the battle with a turret. And those are both still going to be fairly specialized roles compared to the generalist x-wing and b-wing.

Edited by iPeregrine, 22 July 2014 - 10:41 PM.


#63 MajorJuggler

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:41 PM

 

The Y-Wing is only a dedicated turret ship because no better options exist at present. You know, that thing that could be remedied with the expansion we keep advocating.


But, as I've said before (and you've continued to ignore it), the y-wing has very little design space available to be anything other than a secondary weapon platform. It's too expensive to swarm well enough to make up for its weak primary weapon, and it doesn't have the stat line to compete with other ships in the 20-25 point price range as a generalist like the x-wing.

 

I'll go to bat here.

 

This is exactly why I suggest a -2 cost turret weapon. It also has the nice side benefit of giving a bomb slot. A 2/1/5/3 stat line is worth 16 points, right on the nose. The Y-wing dial is worse than the X-wing, but it's way more cost efficient at jousting. Drop an R2 on the Y and it's very similar price:performance in both regards. The Y-wing would be 16 points vs. 21 on the X-wing, so it fills a different price point. It would become a viable filler swarm ship at 16 points, competing with Refit A-wings post Rebel Aces, and 12 point Z-95s.



#64 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:02 PM

The Y-Wing is only a dedicated turret ship because no better options exist at present. You know, that thing that could be remedied with the expansion we keep advocating.

But, as I've said before (and you've continued to ignore it), the y-wing has very little design space available to be anything other than a secondary weapon platform. It's too expensive to swarm well enough to make up for its weak primary weapon, and it doesn't have the stat line to compete with other ships in the 20-25 point price range as a generalist like the x-wing. Trying to make it an x-wing with a weaker dial is just doomed to failure. And of course fluff-wise it's a borderline obsolete ship that is only still in service because the rebellion is desperate for any functioning ships it can gets its hands on, so that rules out doing any fancy tricks with it.So, what you're left with is a ship that is designed around the secondary weapons it carries. Torps are broken in ways that have nothing to do with the y-wing specifically, so that leaves turrets as the only design space for it to occupy.

I continue to ignore it because you keep pretending that your opinion is fact. Just because you can't conceive of ways to improve or refit the Y-Wing doesn't mean such options don't exist.

I'm an angelic creature free of sin.


#65 iPeregrine

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:16 PM

It would become a viable filler swarm ship at 16 points, competing with Refit A-wings post Rebel Aces, and 12 point Z-95s.


But why do we want to improve the jousting efficiency of naked y-wings and make it another swarm ship? How would this be an interesting ship instead of just another z-95 equivalent? After all, if their jousting efficiency is the same and they can't do anything besides joust there's no strong preference in either direction (independent of whether your available point total is divisible by 12 or 16). And even if it does have an advantage it just promotes more of the same boring jousting swarm gameplay where all that matters is how well you optimized your math.

The better solution is to focus on the things that the y-wing actually does differently instead of trying to make it a z-95 variant. For example, if you want a bomb:
 

Bomb Racks
Modification
Y-wing only

Your upgrade bar gains the {bomb} upgrade icon. You may not equip {torpedo} upgrades.

X points


Now you have a ship that does something interesting, since you have a turret you can line up ideal bomb drops without having to worry about keeping a target in your arc. But you're also paying a lot more points than a TIE bomber. And you can consider the cost a concession that torp y-wings, like missile a-wings, just aren't working.

Or maybe you could try to fix the torp problem:
 

Ammunition Stockpile
Modification
Y-wing only

Your {torpedo} upgrade cards do not cost squad points.

3 points


Now you can buy a dual-torp y-wing for less than the cost of a single (currently overpriced) torpedo shot, and there might be a reason to consider taking one. Salm obviously gets a huge boost from this (and FFG, please errata him an EPT), and with the torpedo costs down to a reasonable level you might even see a turret + torp combo occasionally.

Edited by iPeregrine, 22 July 2014 - 11:17 PM.


#66 iPeregrine

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:17 PM

I continue to ignore it because you keep pretending that your opinion is fact. Just because you can't conceive of ways to improve or refit the Y-Wing doesn't mean such options don't exist.


Fine, then tell us what these interesting options are. Or just STFU.

#67 MajorJuggler

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:25 PM

 

It would become a viable filler swarm ship at 16 points, competing with Refit A-wings post Rebel Aces, and 12 point Z-95s.


But why do we want to improve the jousting efficiency of naked y-wings and make it another swarm ship? How would this be an interesting ship instead of just another z-95 equivalent? After all, if their jousting efficiency is the same and they can't do anything besides joust there's no strong preference in either direction (independent of whether your available point total is divisible by 12 or 16). And even if it does have an advantage it just promotes more of the same boring jousting swarm gameplay where all that matters is how well you optimized your math.

 

The Z-95 is still a better jousting efficiency. It's crazy good.

 

For differences, also see: dials, droids, and Y-wing's damage:durability ratio makes it more of a tank. If you think they would be the same, then I'm sorry, but you haven't thought through it enough, there are quite a few differences...

 

My point was simply to change the ship as little as possible and make it balanced without having to take a turret. That's all. If you can radically change the ship to make it viable some other way, go for it. It's all just pure speculation anyway.



#68 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:31 PM

I continue to ignore it because you keep pretending that your opinion is fact. Just because you can't conceive of ways to improve or refit the Y-Wing doesn't mean such options don't exist.

Fine, then tell us what these interesting options are. Or just STFU.

Reported.
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#69 iPeregrine

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:33 PM

The Z-95 is still a better jousting efficiency. It's crazy good.


So if you're not boosting it to match the z-95's jousting efficiency then why take the naked y-wing?
 

For differences, also see: dials, droids, and Y-wing's damage:durability ratio makes it more of a tank. If you think they would be the same, then I'm sorry, but you haven't thought through it enough, there are quite a few differences...


Sure, there are subtle differences, but not that many. The y-wing's dial is just a z-95 with more red and less green, and the upgrade slots aren't all that appealing when a droid on a y-wing costs the same as a more effective droid on an x-wing (the same old hull/shield upgrade problem). The only thing appealing about your proposal is getting a bomb slot, and that has nothing to do with jousting efficiency boosts.
 

My point was simply to change the ship as little as possible and make it balanced without having to take a turret.


But WHY do you want to make that change? What's wrong with having a dedicated secondary weapon platform that always takes a turret (or load of torps, if you really want)? Not every ship has to be viable in a naked swarm with great jousting efficiency.

As for what I would do, those modification cards are a pretty good start. They make the y-wing better and open up some new options without losing sight of its role as a secondary weapon platform.

#70 iPeregrine

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:34 PM

Reported.


The troll is using the report button. Irony, thy name is WonderWAAAGH.

#71 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 12:01 AM

Reported.

The troll is using the report button. Irony, thy name is WonderWAAAGH.

Anyone who's never had a thread locked for threatening to shoot people, please take a step forward. Whoa, not so fast there Peregrine. Are you this cantankerous in real life, or are you actually capable of conceding a lost cause every now and again? I don't think I've ever seen a thread where you weren't arguing against everyone.
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#72 iPeregrine

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 12:10 AM

Anyone who's never had a thread locked for threatening to shoot people, please take a step forward.


*steps forward*

Oh wait, you actually thought you could lie again and nobody would notice? Too bad nobody takes you seriously or you'd be in some real legal trouble for accusing me of making death threats.

I don't think I've ever seen a thread where you weren't arguing against everyone.


And I don't think I've ever seen a thread where you've contributed to anything besides your post count.

#73 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 12:41 AM

I don't think you understand how torts work, but okay. Please, feel free to contact your local police department. I'm sure they'll be as amused as we are.

Honestly, I don't know how anyone can be so oblivious. Nobody agrees with you. Do I really need to quote them all in order for you to understand?

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 23 July 2014 - 12:41 AM.

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#74 LeoHowler

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 01:05 AM

Right, so... there are a number of things that I've heard for suggestions for adding to the Y-Wing. I'm not really going to analyse them in terribly hard detail, but I will give my two cents on them. These are also included with the obvious addition of new pilots, EPT's and the like.

 

Adding bombs: this would be nice. There are already a few bomb options, and proton bombs have been used many a time in various games as the included weapon with Y-Wings. Thematic, fun, and the role of the craft will finally be DIFFERENT! Many people seem to disagree on how this is supposed to be done, and I think we just should switch the torpedoes out. One or both.

 

Changing the Turret slot to the Cannon slot: not a bad idea, but also not a -great- idea if you ask me. People already like B-Wings for this reason and we'll be getting the YT-2000 relatively soon. I give a resounding MEH.

 

Adding crew: would depend entirely on cost and if it sacrifices the astromech upgrade slot. Personally, I think this puts them reletively on par with the new B-Wing upgrade since they can use crew and sensors together with cannons.

 

New astromechs: always a welcome addition, and something that people will want. For the love of god, could we finally get Wedge's R5 astromech already?

 

New turrets: more options are usually good. Maybe a Turbolaser Turret or something to that effect? Anything that's better than what we have now.


~Remember Alderaan~

Alliance Fleet: 4 X-Wings, 3 Y-Wings, 3 A-Wings, 2 B-Wings, 2 HWK-290, 2 YT-1300, , 3 Z-95's, 2 E-Wings, 1 GR-75

Imperial Navy: 5 TIE Fighters, 1 TIE Bomber, 2 TIE Interceptors, 1 TIE Advance x1, 1 Lambda Class Shuttle, 3 Firespray 31, 1 TIE Defender

Black Sun Private Fleet: Coming soon~


#75 gabe69velasquez

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 01:11 AM

Y-Wing%20Carrier%20Frame%20Final_0.jpg?i
http://www.swagonlin...ng-escort-frame

BTL-S3Y-Wingcockpit_zps6e75cb7f.png

Edited by gabe69velasquez, 23 July 2014 - 01:17 AM.

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#76 gabe69velasquez

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 01:23 AM

Y-Wing variants
 
• BTL Y-wing starfighter
The BTL Y-wing starfighter, built by Koensayr Manufacturing, was a mainstay of the Alliance Starfighter Corps. It was often used as an assault bomber to attack enemy capital ships directly in conjunction with the later B-wing starfighters.

Armament
Taim & Bak IX4 or KX5 laser cannons[4] (2) 
Light ArMek turreted SW-4 ion cannons (2)
Arakyd Flex Tube proton torpedo launchers (2)
4 torpedoes each
Proton bombs
 
• BTL-S3 Y-wing starfighter
 The BTL-S3 Y-wing, a variant configuration of the BTL Y-wing starfighter, was the most common Y-wing configuration. A two-man strike starfighter, the first crew member piloted the craft, while the second acted as a gunner and controlled the two swivel-mounted ion cannons, located right on top of the cockpit.

Armament
Taim & Bak IX4 or KX5 laser cannons (2)
ArMek turreted SW-4 ion cannon (1)
Aratech Flex Tube proton torpedo launchers (2)
10 torpedoes
20 proton bombs
 
• BTL-A4 Y-wing starfighter 
The BTL-A4 Y-wing starfighter was the one-man version of the BTL-S3 starfighter model.

Armament
Taim & Bak IX4 or KX5 laser cannons (2)
ArMek turreted SW-4 ion cannons (2)
Arakyd Flex Tube proton torpedo launchers (2)
8 torpedoes or 20 proton bombs
 
• BTL-A4 LP "Longprobe"
An additional (though less common) BTL-A4 variant known as the "LongProbe," designated BTL-A4 (LP), was equipped with a nav computer, backup hyperdrive, advanced scanners, and an extended fuel supply in place of the weapons systems officer.
Armament
Laser cannons
Ion cannons
8 proton torpedoes
 

• BTL-S3 Courier variant
Alliance Intelligence utilized specially modified Y-wings for long-range courier duty. This variant of the BTL-S3 had no ion cannons, which were removed for baggage space, a larger main cockpit area able to carry up to five people,...

• BTL-S3B Y-wing starfighter
The BTL-S3B Y-wing starfighter was a variant of the S3 Y-wing, with twin blasters.

• Light Y-wing
The Light Y-wing was a light bomber, which lacked the support pylons on the engine.

• Heavy Y-wing 
The Heavy Y-wing was a bomber with heavier ordinance and four engine pods.
 
This interesting list I found is going to keep me researching.
The Y-wing mark I
The Y-wing mark II (Unofficial)
BTL-P1 Y-wing "Prototype"
BTL-F1 Y-wing "Fighter"
BTL-T2 Y-wing "Trainer"
BTL-T2mod Y-wing "Intel Courier"
BTL-T2W Y-wing "Early Warning"
BTL-T2KC Y-wing "Tanker"
BTL-S3 Y-wing "Fighter-Bomber"
BTL-A4 Y-wing "Recon"
BTL-E5 Y-wing "Wild Weasel"
BTL-A6 Y-wing II "Recon"
BTL-S7 Y-wing II "Fighter-Bomber"
BTL-M2 "Medium Bomber"
BTL-U8 Y-wing "Pinnace"
BTL-E9 Y-wing II "Wild Weasel"
BTL-T10 Y-wing II "Trainer"
BTL-D11 Y-wing "Drone"



 
So with all these variants,
as I read through the differences,
I see a lot of ideas for upgrade cards.
 
• BTL-A4  title card, maybe like the Charadaan refit (-2) for the A-wing, locking the turret backwards (-2), or removing it completely (-4), adding the Boost ability or evade.
• Longprobe title card that adds the system upgrade.
• BTL-S3 Courier title card that removes the turret, and adds a crew, with restrictions against attack related crew.
• Light Y-wing title card, another Charadaan-like refit that removes both Torpedo slots. perhaps adding boost or evade instead of the negative cost.
• Heavy Y-wing title card that allows for two bomb upgrade slots.
• Veteran title card, the obvious one, that gives the Y-wing an EPT slot.
• Ace title card, not the obvious one, but rather one that gives the Y-wing the Boost or evade ability.
• Astromech upgrade, a droid that will share target locks, like Dutch Vander's ability, but with two other ships like Fleet Officer.
• BTL-T2 Y-wing title card, removes the two proton torpedo slots for two extra shield.
• BTL-T2W title card,  extends the range of target locking for self and other ships.
• BTL-A6 Y-wing II "Recon" title card, like the long probe adds the system upgrade, but twice.
• BTL-E5 Y-wing title card, an ability that allows the removal of target locks within a range of 2.
• BTL-U8 "Easy Eight" Y-wing title card, heavily modified with two crew, more hull, less shields, and only the turret as the primary weapon. 
• BTL-M2 "Medium Bomber" title card, adds two crew and an extra torpedo slot, making the turret the primary weapon.
• BTL-E9 Y-wing title card, a ship capable of performing a Jam action, same range as the Rebel transport.
• BTL-T10/FO Y-wing title card,  if this ship is within range of a huge ship it doubles all target lock actions of the huge ship.
• BTL-TD11 Y-wing drone  title card... not even going there, until they introduce Kamikaze ramming rules. 
 
...Yes I know most of the later where unofficial ships created by Urban Lundqvist for use with the Star Wars role-playing game made by West End Games.


Edited by gabe69velasquez, 23 July 2014 - 03:31 AM.

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#77 Rithrin

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 01:29 AM

There's plently of design space for Y-Wings.

 

Just off the top of my head:

 

Upgrade/Mod/etc that alows them to fire both their turret and main weapon. (Possibly with a drawback other than points).
Ability to carry bombs, provided they don't intend to keep bombs purely Imperial.

Different turrets, which could be released as a Y-Wing update or with other ships.

'Tracer rounds' (Or a better name, please), a 1pt upgrade that may be trashed after hitting with a primary attack to give some number of allies a Target Lock on the defender. Or perhaps allows another ally with Target Lock on that defender to immediately fire their torpedoes out of initiative order.


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#78 Lagomorphia

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 03:14 AM

I agree with Peregrine in that making the Y-wing a swarmer kind of defeats the point of it. However, there's plenty of things that can be done to make the Y-wing more cost efficient. It's an old but reliable warhorse, more durable but less maneuverable than the newer X-wing but it packs a punch. Its targeting computers have a slight edge over the X-wing (hence it being used for the trench run first). It's lore role's been a little blurred because so many games recast it as an outright bomber. Salm stuck with the Y-wing because he trusted it to bring him back in one piece.

 

Personally, I think the Y-wing should have been a 3 attack ship, and had it launched in a later wave it probably would have been or had something else to give it more kick. However, in Wave 1 FFG seemed to have no qualms with expensive 2 attack ships, hence the much maligned TIE advanced.

 

I said above I agreed with Peregrine that pushing the Y-wing into A-wing/Z-95 swarm territory doesn't fit the Y-wing. What I disagree with is his assertion that the Y-wing has no design space.

 

Pump the Y-wing to 3 dice and you completely change its combat dynamic by giving it a turret and a viable frontal attack. It ceases to be a turret platform like the HWK and suddenly you have a reason to line up those frontal shots. The fire linking idea works too (where you can fire the turret and the primary weapon at the same target, and thus would have to get them into Range 1-2 in arc). The most obvious choice is a Blaster Turret that doesn't suck. Blaster Turret effectively costs 7 because you need Recspec to get proper use out of it. Personally, I'd rather have just had a 7 point Blaster Turret, because then the Y-wing gets some use out of it. However, if there is a Y-wing acepack we'll almost certainly get a new turret that actually competes with the ICT.

The BTL-S3 (as opposed to the Yavin BTL-A4 that comes in the blister) has two pilots. BTL-S3 upgrade, give the Y-wing a crew slot. This I can see hurling the Y-wing back into the fore because you've got the first ship that can combine crew and astromech, and there are some seriously good (but not gamebreaking) combos there. Nien Numb and R2-D2 (Nien Numb on a Y-wing outright) and you get a brutally hard Y-wing to kill. Same with Recon Specialist and the focus healing astromech. Recon Specialist also makes Blaster Turret viable on a Y-wing. Weapons Engineer and R7 Astromech. A crew slot on the Y-wing brings a lot more to the field than it does on the B-wing.

 

Then there's the bomb upgrade, the most obvious one for the Y-wing.

 

There's no shortage of things FFG could do while keeping the Y-wing a Y-wing.



#79 gabe69velasquez

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:11 AM

Personally, I think the Y-wing should have been a 3 attack ship, and had it launched in a later wave it probably would have been or had something else to give it more kick. However, in Wave 1 FFG seemed to have no qualms with expensive 2 attack ships, hence the much maligned TIE advanced.
 
Pump the Y-wing to 3 dice and you completely change its combat dynamic by giving it a turret and a viable frontal attack. It ceases to be a turret platform like the HWK and suddenly you have a reason to line up those frontal shots. The fire linking idea works too (where you can fire the turret and the primary weapon at the same target, and thus would have to get them into Range 1-2 in arc). The most obvious choice is a Blaster Turret that doesn't suck. Blaster Turret effectively costs 7 because you need Recspec to get proper use out of it. Personally, I'd rather have just had a 7 point Blaster Turret, because then the Y-wing gets some use out of it. However, if there is a Y-wing acepack we'll almost certainly get a new turret that actually competes with the ICT.

I disagree with more than half of what you wrote, but I'll stick to pointing the obvious that you should know:
Three attack dice ships have more than two lasers like the Y-wing, the X-wing for example has double the lasers the Y-wing has, so just assuming it's okay to keep adding dice to the ship doesn't fit the framework the game is based on, otherwise why stop at three, the Phantom has four so why not make it four dice for the Y-wing or five. The Phantom by the way is listed as having five laser cannons.

200px-TIEPhantomMuzzleFlashes-ALOViewer.


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#80 SpikeSpiegel

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:17 AM

I just think the Y-Wing buff should be paired with an X-Wing to match the fluff of the video game...
SEE YOU SPACE COWBOY...




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