Jump to content



Photo

Rebel Aces II?


  • Please log in to reply
466 replies to this topic

#41 sirhc

sirhc

    Member

  • Members
  • 127 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:14 PM

...the y-wing just isn't a very exciting ship and fluff-wise is borderline obsolete.


Didn't you already get beaten about the head adn shoulders over this point? There's no question in my mind that Y-wings do need their own Aces treatment.
Yes, and quite severely I might add - on both accounts.
 

Didn't you already get beaten about the head adn shoulders over this point? There's no question in my mind that Y-wings do need their own Aces treatment.

A certain obnoxious narcissist spamming about how awesome he is does not qualify as "beating". And I never said that the y-wing doesn't need balance help, I said it wasn't an appropriate choice for this expansion. I will be happy when FFG publishes a "boring obsolete ships that can still contribute something" expansion that gives the y-wing an EPT and a blaster turret equivalent that doesn't suck.
I'm the most liked poster on this board, surely it's not narcissism if it's true. Besides, you're the one who keeps declaring me the winner of the internet. Shouldn't I have a trophy by now?
Sorry, have to weigh in here.

WAAAGH is one of the most entertaining posters on this board. Hands down. There's something wonderful about watching intelligent people get sucked down the troll rabbit hole. He's one of the best billy-goats there is!

Second, the Y-Wing is the Cadillac of the Rebel fleet. I fear if it got any better it'd seriously disrupt the balance of the Force. This is already a great ship not in need of an update.

#42 Vorpal Sword

Vorpal Sword

    O frabjous day!

  • Members
  • 2,579 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:26 PM

...the Y-Wing is the Cadillac of the Rebel fleet. I fear if it got any better it'd seriously disrupt the balance of the Force. This is already a great ship not in need of an update.

 

 

I like the Y-wing. I use it frequently, and defend it to people who don't get how much fun it can be--but I won't argue that it doesn't need an update.

  • How often do you see Y-wings run in general?
  • How often do you see Gray Squadron and Horton run by competitive players?
  • Which turret appears more often on Y-wings, and how often is the other used?
  • How often do other upgrades appear on Y-wings?

Basically, there are two builds for Y-wings: Gold Squadron Pilot + Ion Cannon Turret and Dutch Vander + Ion Cannon Turret. Before Wave 4 R5 or R2 units appeared, but even less frequently than the ship itself; now Dutch is a great platform for R7-T1 and R7 Astromech is a good way to stretch the Y-wing's already-impressive defense, and it's too soon to say if either one will really make an impact on the metagame. But I'm guessing not.

 

Y-wings are already balanced, and they have a definite niche, but they don't have options. That's what a content refresh could do for them, and I hope it happens sooner rather than later.


  • gentgeen, Jedhead and Punning Pundit like this

#43 VanorDM

VanorDM

    Rules Ninja

  • Members
  • 3,918 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:30 PM

  • add a new turret weapon (still thinking about this one)


What I'd do, is an upgrade that does nothing more then allow the Y-Wing to use the blaster turret without needing to spend a focus.

Either as an upgrade that removes the focus cost, or else a Y-Wing only version that doesn't cost a focus. Effectively the same thing, so it would all be up to the fluff.

To that end I'd make a title the BTL-S3, so it would represent a crew slot filled with a turret gunner. Make it cost a point, effectively making a no cost blaster turret cost 5 points.

#44 Lagomorphia

Lagomorphia

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,551 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:34 PM

Blaster Turret costing a focus was just plain stupid. It makes it junk on anyone who isn't Kyle. The solution's RecSpec, which makes it a seven point turret that eats your crew slot. I'd rather have just had it a 7 point turret.


  • librerian samae likes this

#45 WonderWAAAGH

WonderWAAAGH

    Oasean Ork

  • Members
  • 3,292 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:49 PM

What about an upgrade/modification that simply permits you to use the Y-Wing's primary attack value as a turret? I'd be worried that it makes it too much like the YT-2400, but the latter ship has a lot of other things going on for it.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 22 July 2014 - 04:39 PM.

I'm an angelic creature free of sin.


#46 MajorJuggler

MajorJuggler

    MathWinger

  • Members
  • 2,607 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:36 PM

 

As far as the Y-wing goes... the Y-wing with an Ion Cannon Turret is just fine. Without it, it is completely obsolete. If I were designing a Y-wing expansion it would include at least the following:

  • "Bomb Bay Refit" Y-wing-only turret upgrade (see below)
  • add a new turret weapon (still thinking about this one)
  • 2 new Y-wing pilots with useful abilities
  • reprint Horton with an EPT (update original Y-wing expansion with Horton EPT, and retroactively Errata / FAQ him so he has an EPT)

 

Bomb Bay Refit

Turret Weapon. Y-wing only.

Cost: -2

This ship gains the [Bomb] slot.

 

I agree with almost everything except maybe instead of a taking a turret slot and making it 2 points cheaper i would just have it take a Torpedo slot, and cost 0 points After all Y-wings don't remove their turrets for Bomb runs they just don't carry as many torpedoes

 

 

I am approaching it more from a game mechanics and balance perspective. As long as the Y-wing has the capability of taking an Ion Cannon Turret, it really doesn't need any buffs. But without the turret it's basically useless now that the Z-95 is here. The only possible balanced solution is to provide a buff that simultaneously takes away the Turret slot, otherwise people will still take Ion Y-wings... they'll just be buffed, and you still wouldn't see turretless Y-wing use.

 

There is a long list of things that FFG has done that aren't 100% in line with background material, but it makes for a better game. This would be one example of that.


Edited by MajorJuggler, 22 July 2014 - 04:37 PM.


#47 dandirk

dandirk

    Member

  • Members
  • 365 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:51 PM

A title with the ability to add bombs to y-wing would be sorta neat... not sure it would fix any balance issues.


  • catachanninja likes this

#48 InvestFDC

InvestFDC

    Member

  • Members
  • 233 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:09 PM

 

 

...the y-wing just isn't a very exciting ship and fluff-wise is borderline obsolete.


Didn't you already get beaten about the head adn shoulders over this point? There's no question in my mind that Y-wings do need their own Aces treatment.

Yes, and quite severely I might add - on both accounts.
 

 

Didn't you already get beaten about the head adn shoulders over this point? There's no question in my mind that Y-wings do need their own Aces treatment.

A certain obnoxious narcissist spamming about how awesome he is does not qualify as "beating". And I never said that the y-wing doesn't need balance help, I said it wasn't an appropriate choice for this expansion. I will be happy when FFG publishes a "boring obsolete ships that can still contribute something" expansion that gives the y-wing an EPT and a blaster turret equivalent that doesn't suck.

I'm the most liked poster on this board, surely it's not narcissism if it's true. Besides, you're the one who keeps declaring me the winner of the internet. Shouldn't I have a trophy by now?

 

 

Wait, how do you know he's talking about you??? :lol:  :lol:  :lol:



#49 MajorJuggler

MajorJuggler

    MathWinger

  • Members
  • 2,607 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:16 PM

A title with the ability to add bombs to y-wing would be sorta neat... not sure it would fix any balance issues.


It has a cost of -2.

#50 RookiePilot

RookiePilot

    Member

  • Members
  • 364 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:19 PM

I've enjoyed using Y-Wings, but always with an Ion Cannon Turret. I'd like to see them get the aces treatment just to get a few more pilots, but I don't think they need anything like the A-Wing buff. And I don't think we'll see two I an aces pack simply because the only repaint I imagine FFG doing is the gray squadron colors.

So, aces wise my money would go on the second ship being an E-Wing or Z-95. A Hawk would be too many support ships in one box.
  • Wacko likes this

#51 InvestFDC

InvestFDC

    Member

  • Members
  • 233 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:27 PM

Y-Wing is fine as is.



#52 MajorJuggler

MajorJuggler

    MathWinger

  • Members
  • 2,607 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 06:24 PM

Y-Wing is fine as is.


Unless you try running one without a turret.

#53 iPeregrine

iPeregrine

    Member

  • Members
  • 683 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:24 PM

Y-Wing is fine as is.


Unless you try running one without a turret.


But why is this a problem? This is like complaining that the HWK sucks without a turret. Of course it does, it's a dedicated turret ship. The only reason it's an "optional" upgrade is so that you can pick which turret you want to use.

#54 Ryther

Ryther

    Member

  • Members
  • 324 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:51 PM

You can't be, because i don't like you, and i am always right.


You must not be married.

Could be a woman. They tend to think that way.

Yeah, what kind of idiot designs a product that matches the theme of the name for that product? Screw the fluff, let's just put a HWK in the box with the new imperial huge ship because it needs some balance work.


Pilots are aces, not ships. There, now you don't have to bother wasting your energy and our time fighting over semantics again.

The aces so far have been the ships that they tend to put many of the best aces in in each faction. A different title for a Ywing expansion would probably be a good idea. The battle of Yavin pack would be a nice idea, but the faction crossover might be an issue for some. You might make them each in a separate box. Battle of Yavin Ywing pack, and a Battle of Yavin Tie Advanced pack. Two packs solve most of the issues.

"Truth suffers from too much analysis."

Frank Herbert


#55 WonderWAAAGH

WonderWAAAGH

    Oasean Ork

  • Members
  • 3,292 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:58 PM

Y-Wing is fine as is.

Unless you try running one without a turret.
But why is this a problem? This is like complaining that the HWK sucks without a turret. Of course it does, it's a dedicated turret ship. The only reason it's an "optional" upgrade is so that you can pick which turret you want to use.

The Y-Wing is only a dedicated turret ship because no better options exist at present. You know, that thing that could be remedied with the expansion we keep advocating.
  • VanorDM, Vorpal Sword, MajorJuggler and 1 other like this

I'm an angelic creature free of sin.


#56 sirhc

sirhc

    Member

  • Members
  • 127 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:01 PM

@iPeregrine: This is a fine rebuttal to a certain extent and I tend to agree with the point you are making.

@Vorpal & Major: You guys make excellent points. How would you improve so as not to knock things off kilter? Maybe something having to do with movement perhaps? Because increasing the efficacy of its offense seems off to me for some reason.

Edited by sirhc, 22 July 2014 - 08:02 PM.


#57 iPeregrine

iPeregrine

    Member

  • Members
  • 683 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:31 PM

The Y-Wing is only a dedicated turret ship because no better options exist at present. You know, that thing that could be remedied with the expansion we keep advocating.


But, as I've said before (and you've continued to ignore it), the y-wing has very little design space available to be anything other than a secondary weapon platform. It's too expensive to swarm well enough to make up for its weak primary weapon, and it doesn't have the stat line to compete with other ships in the 20-25 point price range as a generalist like the x-wing. Trying to make it an x-wing with a weaker dial is just doomed to failure. And of course fluff-wise it's a borderline obsolete ship that is only still in service because the rebellion is desperate for any functioning ships it can gets its hands on, so that rules out doing any fancy tricks with it.

So, what you're left with is a ship that is designed around the secondary weapons it carries. Torps are broken in ways that have nothing to do with the y-wing specifically, so that leaves turrets as the only design space for it to occupy.

Edited by iPeregrine, 22 July 2014 - 09:32 PM.


#58 AtomicFryingPan

AtomicFryingPan

    Member

  • Members
  • 392 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:36 PM

I'm all for a Y-wing aces pack like I said before and truly think it could improve darn near every rebel ship in the game. As far as giving it options beyond turrets maybe if it could take bombs but I don't think bombs have a strong enough place to justify taking one over a ion turret. 


Rebel Fleet- 6 X-wings, 4 A-wings, 4 Y-wings, 3 B-Wings, 3 HWK-290, 1YT-1300, 3 E-wings, 3 Z95, 1 Transport, 1 Corvette.

Empire Fleet- 8 Tie Fighters, 2 Tie Adv, 4 Tie Int, 2 Tie Bombers, 2 Firespray, 1 Lambda Shuttle, 2 Defenders, 2 Phantoms


#59 iPeregrine

iPeregrine

    Member

  • Members
  • 683 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:44 PM

Instead of an aces pack with a quesitonable theme the better option would be a "capital ship killers" pack with a y-wing and TIE bomber. The pilots could be designed around killing big targets like CR-90s and Falcons, and it would also be an opportunity to throw in some generic upgrades to give the y-wing a little balance help.

(Of course this assumes that there will be imperial huge ships, and FFG is going to legitimately support epic play instead of giving it one release and forgetting about it.)

Edited by iPeregrine, 22 July 2014 - 09:45 PM.

  • LeoHowler likes this

#60 Mace Windu

Mace Windu

    Member

  • Members
  • 342 posts

Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:32 PM

I don’t think many people are disputing the Y-Wing is actually underpowered or unplayable just…. stale perhaps?

 

For example, prior to the Transport coming out the X Wing had:

 

Wedge

Luke

Garven

Biggs

 

Twice as many options in terms of unique pilots with interesting abilities. It didn’t need another 4 unique pilots in Wes, Porkins, Hobbie & Tarn but it got them. These pilots didn’t make the X-Wing overpowered, it just provided a bit more variety.

 

I don’t think it's too much to ask for a bit more variety in having some more unique pilots.

 

Having said that the ships most often mooted for an aces “revamp” are the same ships that only currently have 2 unique pilots:

 

TIE Advanced

Y-Wing

Bomber

HWK

 

Wave 4 ships not withstanding of course, but you get the Idea

 

With all other non-W4 ships having (or soon to have) 3 or more Unique Pilots, I'm pretty sure all anyone wants is a bit more variety spread across the ships as currently it's a little distorted:

 

X-Wing 8 Uniques 2 Generic

Tie Fighter 6 unique 3 Generic

Tie interceptor 7 unique 4 Generic

 

Pilot packs would fix this imbalance But I don’t see them selling pilot cards without a ship attached to them.


  • Punning Pundit likes this

Rebel Freedom Fighters: 5 Z95, 4 X-Wing, 4 B-Wing, 1 Y-Wing, 2 A-Wing, 1 E-Wing, 1 HWK 290 & 1 YT-1300

Imperial Oppressors: 5 TIE Fighter, 4 TIE Bomber, 4 TIE Interceptor, 1 TIE Phantom, 1 TIE Defender, 2 Firespray & 1 Shuttle





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS