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Rogue Trader dynasties & the Imperium (fluff question)


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#1 Adeptus-B

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 02:25 PM

The RT game is focused on 'young' Trader dynasties with no tangible resources outside the Koronus Expanse. But what about 'established' dynasties? The 'name' NPC dynasties operating in the Koronus Expanse have probably brought several planets into the Imperium before venturing into the KE (it's reasonable to assume that the Winterscale dynasty, for instance, discovered several worlds within what became the Calaxis Sector).

 

So, my question is, what connection do the dynasties retain with the planets they discovered which have subsequently become 'standard' Imperial worlds? Do the dynasties continue to 'administrate' these worlds under the eye of the Sector government, or do they turn them over wholesale to be governed by officials appointed by the Lord Sector? Do the RTs continue to draw revenue from the worlds their dynasty discovered even after it becomes Imperial property? If so, how? Do they receive a tribute raised by the world, or do they get a percentage of the Imperial Tithe? In perpetuity?

 

Sticking with the example above, let's say the Winterscale Dynasty discovered a Mining World in the Calixis Sector before relocating to the Koronus Expanse- what connection, if any, does the dynasty retain to this world now that it is fully a part of the Imperium?

 

Note that I'm asking about color description, and not 'crunch'.



#2 Marwynn

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 02:40 PM

Owning and claiming a world is a big thing. Bringing it to the Imperial fold is usually rewarded by the ability to set who the Imperial Commander / Planetary Governor will be. That in turn endears/binds that dynasty to yours, so it's a feudal vassalage of sorts. You reward a particularly good servant with that title and they're set for multiple lifetimes and in turn you create a line of loyal servants--hopefully.

 

Warp travel is highly restricted. So on top of the claims to the system's mineral wealth you'll also have rights to trade charters. This would probably be sold off at an auction, that is the rights for a transport ship to come to your system and load up on cargo. This would also require cooperation with the Navigator House that helped chart a course to that planet, as they'll probably have to disclose the route taken.

 

That would be on top of any other dynastic transports you've already authorized. The powers of a rogue trader allows him to set up new trade routes after all. 

 

Now, the Imperium could very much move in and appoint their own Imperial Commander. Doing so means that the dynasty lacks sufficient influence with the Administratum, or has earned the ire of a powerful foe. I don't think the Administratum is that heavy handed as it would dis-encourage the rogue trader from keeping his discoveries open. 

 

In short, you build up a world and if you play your cards right the Imperium can come in and keep the world as you had set it. 


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#3 Radwraith

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:02 PM

It is HIGHLY unlikely that the Imperium would bother to 'seize' a world a RT actually colonized and developed. It's not worth the trouble! Said already "belongs" to the Imperium by virtue of the RT's warrant. What they might do is demand a Tithe if the world is sufficiently developed (Or even if it isn't!). The Background material gives a good Idea of what such a Tithe might imply and with War both on the fringe of the Calixis sector and through the Jericho gate, the need for manpower and material is unending! Now if the RT actually refused to provide the requested tithe  he could plan on starting his new Black crusade campaign!


Edited by Radwraith, 21 July 2014 - 10:03 PM.


#4 Fgdsfg

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:54 AM

The RT game is focused on 'young' Trader dynasties with no tangible resources outside the Koronus Expanse. But what about 'established' dynasties? The 'name' NPC dynasties operating in the Koronus Expanse have probably brought several planets into the Imperium before venturing into the KE (it's reasonable to assume that the Winterscale dynasty, for instance, discovered several worlds within what became the Calaxis Sector).
 
So, my question is, what connection do the dynasties retain with the planets they discovered which have subsequently become 'standard' Imperial worlds? Do the dynasties continue to 'administrate' these worlds under the eye of the Sector government, or do they turn them over wholesale to be governed by officials appointed by the Lord Sector? Do the RTs continue to draw revenue from the worlds their dynasty discovered even after it becomes Imperial property? If so, how? Do they receive a tribute raised by the world, or do they get a percentage of the Imperial Tithe? In perpetuity?
 
Sticking with the example above, let's say the Winterscale Dynasty discovered a Mining World in the Calixis Sector before relocating to the Koronus Expanse- what connection, if any, does the dynasty retain to this world now that it is fully a part of the Imperium?
 
Note that I'm asking about color description, and not 'crunch'.


My interpretation has always been that once a planet has been brought "into the fold" and have grown to a certain size, it becomes tithed by the Administratum. This process can take centuries, depending on where the planet is, how it was brought into the fold, and whether the secretary was sick that day or not.

At about this point, it should also receive an Adeptus Arbites precinct/courthouse and be required to raise a Planetary Defence Force of some kind or another. This is not a given, though, and exceptions apparently exists.

This tithe is usually a matter of fact kind of deal. Some planets Tithe gold, other planets tithe people, some worlds tithe plants. Who rules the world and how it ruled in general, the Administratum does not seem to care overly much. The Sector Governor might have some say in who becomes the Planetary Governor, but overall, who becomes Planetary Governor seems to be mostly a matter of de facto, rather than an issue of de jure.

As such, I'd expect the Rogue Trader Dynasty to have quite some say in who rules the planet as Planetary Governor, and how that rule is exercised. They conquered it, discovered it or otherwise brought it into the fold, what they say, goes. In the labyrinthine connections of the feudal structures of the Imperium, there may be a laundry list of conflicting interests that might have a say, such as the Imperial Guard and Navy claiming it's necessary as a staging ground or Fortress World, or a Sector Governor directly assigning his nephew as the Planetary Governor, or something like that, which could surely be contested in one way or another (such as a Dynastic Rogue Trader's position as a Peer of the Imperium).

So, on the question as to whether a Dynasty would remain 'in control' of a planet even after it's being tithed?

The short answer is yes.
The long answer is maybe.

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#5 Nameless2all

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:29 AM

 

....

The short answer is yes.
The long answer is maybe.

 

 

A prime example is Lucien's Breath.  Just because someone discovered it first, does not mean they were able to keep complete ownership of it.  Every major power broker has a stake in it now, and if it was currently brought into the loving fold of the Imperium, then (IMHO) everyone who has "land" on it would control part of the planet.  Who would be the Planetary Governor?  Well, that is where politics come in.

 

So even if your Dynasty found a world and colonized it, someone else could along, put another colony on the other side, and not you both own "half" (which is a relative term, because their military might / political pull / administrative maneuvering could be better than yours, or it could be worse).


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#6 Fgdsfg

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:07 AM

....
The short answer is yes.
The long answer is maybe.

 
A prime example is Lucien's Breath.  Just because someone discovered it first, does not mean they were able to keep complete ownership of it.  Every major power broker has a stake in it now, and if it was currently brought into the loving fold of the Imperium, then (IMHO) everyone who has "land" on it would control part of the planet.  Who would be the Planetary Governor?  Well, that is where politics come in.
 
So even if your Dynasty found a world and colonized it, someone else could along, put another colony on the other side, and not you both own "half" (which is a relative term, because their military might / political pull / administrative maneuvering could be better than yours, or it could be worse).

I agree with your points completely, I'd just like to raise the possible counter-argument that in the eyes of the Administratum, the "owner" might be considered whomever first established a planetary beacon, contacting the Administratum and, so to say, "marked" the planet on the galactic charts.

At the very least, it's an argument that a Rogue Trader might raise in such a situation.
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#7 Annaamarth

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:47 AM

While another Rogue Trader with the most conventional military forces could say he "owns" it by right of controlling the de facto PDF (and the military might to wreck the world's economy).  Another Rogue Trader who has been landing temple complexes and educating the people (and has the Ecclesiarchy in his back pocket as well as the love of the faithful) could claim the world as his "by Divine Right." So on and so forth, of course.

 

There is no easy answer there, and RTs tend to be crazy and petulant enough that if someone else has a stake in a world, you had probably better try to make them happy, lest they bomb it back into the stone age before any Imperial representative (who isn't a Rogue Trader) arrives.

 

The best way for the Rogue Trader to deal with it is to ignore it.  My mental image consists of locking all of the various RT's seneschals into a conference room and letting them dicker over choices like governor, ownership- or part ownership- of which trade routes and trade over which goods, tithing responsibilities.  Some of the RTs will get a better deal than others, of course, but everyone is likely to get something- which means that while you'll have a couple of angry dynasties you are much less likely to be appointing a governor over a radioactive cinder.  Reference the "you know you're playing Rogue Trader when" thread.


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#8 Amroth

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:00 AM

It may have no basis in reality but I often picture Rogue Trader dynasties comprising large family branches that are too far removed to ever have any hope of inheriting a Warrant of Trade but who can be appointed as rulers (and later planetary governors when the planet is bought into the Imperial fold) of newly discovered/conquered planets, or at least remain high level players in the planet's political or economic structure.

 

This has the two-fold effect of ensuring loyalty of distant family members as although they don't have any chance of becoming the Rogue Trader they know that they can still be richly rewarded if they support the dynasty's ongoing growth and also ensure the planet has a strong reason to stay loyal to the dynasty over generations and even after transitioning to a full Imperial planet.

 

I also picture this as potentially where a lot of the Dynasty's PF comes from as the family has strong investment and control over each planet's resources and infrastructure which it can use to fund future explorations/expansion/conquests etc as well as the lavish lifestyle which most Rogue Traders expect.

 

This concept is complementary to all the other points raised above which I also fully agree with.


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#9 SpoonR

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:06 AM

Mmm, I'm pretty sure this is discussed in a few books, but I don't remember which ones (I'll talk like it's all fact since that is easier to write :)).  The most common thing is that when an area goes from 'expanse' to 'sector', the sector is now part of the Imprium so the RT's charter no longer applies. So, the Rogue Trader moves on to another un-Imperium area. But, parts of the family might have already been set up as planetary governors etc, and they keep those jobs.

 

In Dark Heresy's Book of Judgement, they mention the planet Landunder. In the Calixis Sector, but its' planetary charter had some extra clauses giving a RT family a bunch of rights. So that is another way things can go.

 

Generally, I would assume that big families have basically independent branches across multiple Expanses because coordination would take too much time. So PC's could be a new branch of a powerful family from somewhere else. When planets become part of the Imperium, it kind of goes from junk bond to blue-chip stock. Less profit, more stable, good place to dump boring family members while the risk takers go off to the next gold rush.



#10 filliman

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:35 PM

If I recall, Duke Severus hails from a line of Rogue Traders, and his family ruled an established sub-sector for thirteen generations before the good Duke's unfortunate power grab. So I suppose if you could pull some strings, or the new sector lord/ladt is generous, you could theoretically keep your holdings as administrator.


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#11 ranoncles

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 04:25 AM

If I recall, Duke Severus hails from a line of Rogue Traders, and his family ruled an established sub-sector for thirteen generations before the good Duke's unfortunate power grab. So I suppose if you could pull some strings, or the new sector lord/ladt is generous, you could theoretically keep your holdings as administrator.

 

Almost right ;) .

 

The first Severus was indeed a rogue trader and made so by powerful opponents who wanted to get rid of him before he became a High Lord.

 

In the backstory it is said that "the private armies of the most ambitious of Rogue Trader houses fought in the

hope of one day ruling those worlds wrested from the dead grip of nameless xenos fiends."

 

So that can obviously happen. Severus however didn't get to rule the planets he conquered because he wanted to do so in his own name, rather than on behalf of the Imperium. A fine distinction but a very important one....

 

As I see it, RT's can conquer planets and install their own imperial governors but this has to be accepted by the administratum. Mostly, this will be a foregone conclusion but if the RT family is not acceptable, the governor isn't visibly trying to uphold the Imperial laws and the planet fails to meet its imperial tithe, the adminstratum will lobby for a new governor. I don't see this as easy as a governor is a peer and such appointments are valuable thus the domain of politics....You'd have different factions fighting for the post.

 

 

Perhaps the main point to realise is that once the region becomes accepted imperial space, a legion of imperial organisations will decend upon the planet such as administratum, arbites, mechanicus, clergy etc. The response of the RT appointed governor to their demands will determine if these organisations accept the governor or work to unseat him.



#12 venkelos

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:55 PM

I can see that as happening, but I'm not all together sure how the Imperial forces get wind, and then show up. I suppose the simplest way is that the Rogue Trader, wanting the support and benefits of Imperial sanction, alerts them to his or her "acquisition", and then they charter a charist captain, or the Navy, to ferry the functionaries there, if the Rogue Trader doesn't have a "behind the scenes endeavors" ship take care of it, but I don't remember the book ever going into such things. One supposes that, like a battleship, the Rogue Trader CAN get his hands on one, but it might be seen as outside the scope of all but the richest dynasties, and thus skipped, or hidden in the tricky pages of Stars of Inequity. If they try to keep it quiet, say they are heretics, does the Imperium eventually just show up, anyway?



#13 Radwraith

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:00 PM

Given the nature of building a Colony in SOI, Many of the Adeptus Terra organizations will eventually be present in the process of developing the Colony. For the Administratum, a colony probably becomes 'officially' part of the Imperium when it suits their convenience! Essentially, the first indicator is when they show up to assess your world's Tithe. If the RT does not contest this, they probably will be allowed to continue to govern as they see fit. The Administratum generally doesn't care what form a planet's or sector government may take so long as they get their cut!

 

Of course Ranoncles is also right! The one thing that has survived intact all the way to the 41st millenium is the corrupt, backstabbing art of politics! In Theory, a loyal and productive Rogue trader should have little to worry about. In reality, A corrupt sector lord may Covet the RT's most wealthy world and seek to install his personal Cronies to essentially swipe it out from under him! As I understand it, This is what basically happened to the Original Severus family! Granted, He may not have been particularly well liked when he set out but given his accomplishments, he SHOULD have garnered a lot more recognition  at the end of the crusade! Of course his current descendent does not strike me as near the man he was!


Edited by Radwraith, 31 July 2014 - 02:02 PM.


#14 BaronIveagh

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 05:13 PM

An example of Rogue Traders using thier power to keep a planet from being handed over to the Administratum would be Quaddis.  THere they basically played the system to keep the planet in eternal legal limbo.



#15 ranoncles

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:58 AM

I may be wrong but I don't think RT's actually create Imperial worlds or sectors. They are essentially scout forces, giving licence to trade to meet their expenses and to entice enterprising people to undertake these dangerous missions. Actually conquering (rich) worlds is just a way of making money for them and just one weapon in their arsenal. Even a coalition of RT's would be hard pressed to conquer a sector (of approx. 200 planets) if they harbour orks and other sentient peoples.

 

These 'expanses' only become imperial sectors when a crusade fleet succeeds in conquering them. Such a fleet will be accompanied by a veritable train of imperial organisations, all eager to get their hands on the best bits of the new sector. RT's will just be one of these competing factions but they have the advantage of being able to pick first and posession is usually 9/10ths of the law.....


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#16 Adeptus-B

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:49 PM

I may be wrong but I don't think RT's actually create Imperial worlds or sectors. They are essentially scout forces, giving licence to trade to meet their expenses and to entice enterprising people to undertake these dangerous missions. Actually conquering (rich) worlds is just a way of making money for them and just one weapon in their arsenal. Even a coalition of RT's would be hard pressed to conquer a sector (of approx. 200 planets) if they harbour orks and other sentient peoples.

 

Sure, they don't conquer whole (potential) Sectors, but they are mapping the area and creating the navigational charts that a subsequent crusade will use to bring newly-discovered areas into the Imperium. Going back to my examplw of the Calixis Sector, several of its worlds would have been discovered by the 'name' dynasties who subsequently moved on to the Koronus Expanse. So, are those dynasties still deriving income from those worlds, now that they are officially Tithe-paying Imperial worlds?


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#17 Nameless2all

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 06:31 AM

Sure, they don't conquer whole (potential) Sectors, but they are mapping the area and creating the navigational charts that a subsequent crusade will use to bring newly-discovered areas into the Imperium. Going back to my examplw of the Calixis Sector, several of its worlds would have been discovered by the 'name' dynasties who subsequently moved on to the Koronus Expanse. So, are those dynasties still deriving income from those worlds, now that they are officially Tithe-paying Imperial worlds?

 

 

I don't see why they shouldn't be.  Obviously, RT lacks the detailed rules for this, and simply hand waves it into PF and Misfortunes.  The bonus to this is that it allows the GM to tailor it to the groups/adventure(s)/settings needs and/or wants. 


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#18 Radwraith

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 09:12 AM

 

Sure, they don't conquer whole (potential) Sectors, but they are mapping the area and creating the navigational charts that a subsequent crusade will use to bring newly-discovered areas into the Imperium. Going back to my examplw of the Calixis Sector, several of its worlds would have been discovered by the 'name' dynasties who subsequently moved on to the Koronus Expanse. So, are those dynasties still deriving income from those worlds, now that they are officially Tithe-paying Imperial worlds?

 

 

I don't see why they shouldn't be.  Obviously, RT lacks the detailed rules for this, and simply hand waves it into PF and Misfortunes.  The bonus to this is that it allows the GM to tailor it to the groups/adventure(s)/settings needs and/or wants. 

 

I agree! Even after the Imperium takes control officially and even if said world's government is not tied to the RT, (Which is IMO, unlikely) the dynasty will still maintain impressive business holdings on the world. Especially if they were the ones to initially colonize it!


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#19 filliman

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:48 PM

I can see the Dynasty's holdings making less profit overall when our friends in the Administratum decide they want their piece of your pie, but your manufactoria and other holdings don't magically go up in smoke simply because the Imperium has its own governor. That said, the dynasty with said holdings could easily leverage influence because they could feasbily possess the planet's entire manufactoring base, or whatever holdings they set down there. And if that dynsaty has not monopolized at least area of business, they weren't trying hard enough.


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#20 Radwraith

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 05:16 PM

Not to mention: It's hard to Imagine how a new government would reduce your PF except in extreme circumstances! When the Administratum demands a tithe, Those materials are bought and paid for by the planet's taxpayers. The profits of those sales still reflect on the world's economy and thus in the pocket's of the RT. Now if the Tithe was was so extreme as to reduce the population level of a world, THAT would effect the RT in a profoundly negative fashion!


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