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Toydarians and the Force...


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#1 KevynnRedfern

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:16 PM

So, this strange thought occurred to me over the weekend, so I thought I would ask here.

 

Toydarians, as they are written up, do not have a mechanical "Sorry, no Force Powers work on me" in their write up stat block, but it is mentioned as resistance in the flavor text.

 

So, would it be possible to have a Force wielding Toydarian?

 

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#2 2P51

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:20 PM

Sure.  Imo anyway.


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#3 Krieger22

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:21 PM

If a player is desperate to play a Force-using Toydarian, sure. But seeing as it's supposed to be very rare for Toydarians to be Force-sensitive I wouldn't let him unless he had a really good concept in mind for the character. There's bound to be some sort of genetic mutation or something somewhere in the Toydarian gene pool, and player characters are supposed to be "special".


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#4 Maelora

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:24 PM

Why not?

 

Nothing in their write-up says they are immune to the force. It specifies it for Droids, but not these guys.

 

They have Willpower 3 to start with, explaining why Watto simply 'made his saving throw' against Qui-Gon.  They are stronger-willed than most, and Watto was a particularly cagey, tough-minded specimen who had several ranks of 'Nobody's Fool'.

 

That whole thing was just an 'ass-pull' by Lucas, when someone wondered aloud why the jedi don't just Influence him into releasing the slaves.  Lucas pulls nonsense from thin air all the time, then never mentions it again. *cough* midichlorians *cough*

 

He was trying to cover the plot holes of a movie, not design an RPG.


Edited by Maelora, 21 July 2014 - 12:26 PM.

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#5 Krieger22

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:33 PM

Why not?

 

Nothing in their write-up says they are immune to the force. It specifies it for Droids, but not these guys.

 

They have Willpower 3 to start with, explaining why Watto simply 'made his saving throw' against Qui-Gon.  They are stronger-willed than most, and Watto was a particularly cagey, tough-minded specimen who had several ranks of 'Nobody's Fool'.

 

That whole thing was just an 'ass-pull' by Lucas, when someone wondered aloud why the jedi don't just Influence him into releasing the slaves.  Lucas pulls nonsense from thin air all the time, then never mentions it again. *cough* midichlorians *cough*

 

He was trying to cover the plot holes of a movie, not design an RPG.

I'm not a big fan of the prequels by any means, but I'll have to disagree with you on this one. A plot hole is something that makes no sense and is never explained. Watto being immune to Influence is a plot POINT, since otherwise Qui-Gon would have waved his hand, been on his way, and the rest of the movie (and both subsequent ones) would not have happened. That's not a plot hole by any stretch of the imagination. You may not like it, or agree with it, but it's far from a plot hole.



#6 Maelora

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:38 PM

No, it's a tired and silly device he used in Return of the Jedi too.

 

Every time a jedi wants to use Influence and the plot would be derailed, Lucas conveniently dreams up a new race of Influence-immune aliens. 

 

When another of his minions wondered how the Jedi somehow know Anakin is the Chosen One, he pulls more nonsense out of thin air - diabetic blood sugar readings!

 

And never mentions it again.

 

So, no real need to incorporate the convenient mental dribblings of Lucas into RPG canon, really.


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#7 Atraangelis

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:43 PM

I have to be clear on this..

 

I have not seen anywhere where toydarians are simply imune to the force.

Toydarinas are only immune or have a high resistance to mind affecting force powers just like the Hutt. Dose not say sanything about a phyisical force effect.


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#8 KevynnRedfern

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:47 PM

Good point, Atraangelis.

I can see both Maelora's point concerning Lucas and his deus ex machina writing style when things get inconvenient in his movies, as well as Krieger22's point concerning it being important to the movies.

 

Considering there is no mechanical limitation written into the Toydarian making them immune to Force mental effects (or other effects) I suspect the FFL guys just used the base 3 Willpower to reflect the fluff of the race being hard to influence with the Force.

 

Kevynn


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#9 Maelora

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:47 PM

Actually, neither EoE or AoR indicate Hutts are immune to Influence either.

 

Their high Willpower (5) probably makes it tricky, though, and the 3 ranks of Nobody's Fool.

 

Luke was hardly the finished article after abandoning his training on Dagobah, and so it makes sense that an experienced, hardened crime lord like Jabba could make his save with ease.


Edited by Maelora, 21 July 2014 - 12:54 PM.

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#10 Ghostofman

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:57 PM

Wattroll.jpg


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MAGIC HEADPHONES PROTECT ME FROM THE SPACE!


#11 Maelora

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:00 PM

I wish I could 'like' that twice, Ghost!


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#12 2P51

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:12 PM

Man, I can't wait for F&D to drop......... :D


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#13 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:04 PM

I love Watto. He should have been the star of that movie.


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#14 whafrog

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:41 PM

That whole thing was just an 'ass-pull' by Lucas, when someone wondered aloud why the jedi don't just Influence him into releasing the slaves.  Lucas pulls nonsense from thin air all the time, then never mentions it again. *cough* midichlorians *cough*

 

So...he thought of it while he was writing it, but before he got asked about the slaves, then did the ass-pull after it was written?



#15 whafrog

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:50 PM

Every time a jedi wants to use Influence and the plot would be derailed, Lucas conveniently dreams up a new race of Influence-immune aliens. 

 

Er...who do you think is writing both the Jedi and the plot?  Is one somehow separate from the other?  Do the Jedi exist separately from Lucas' mind?

 

Anyway, Obi-wan already says not everyone is susceptible early in E4 after the "these aren't the droids you're looking for" moment.  The presumption is if someone is not "weak-minded" then the Force won't work as well against them.  So there's no ass-pulling going on (at least on that note) that wasn't already well-foreshadowed.

 

As far as the game is concerned though, the "immunity" statements in the race descriptions do bug me.  More resistant is fine...if I adopt a house rule that will be the first to go.



#16 Maelora

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:10 AM

Lucas does it all the time.  I love the originals, but it's pretty clear he's just making stuff up as he goes along. In the first one, Luke & Leia are clearly intended to be the romantic leads.  Then it was a hit, he got to make further movies, and realised his big-name actor didn't have much to do, so he hooks Han up with Leia.  Luke has to be moved aside, so - yay! - suddenly they are brother and sister! Then Lucas says that he'd always intended that to be the case, because he's such a genius.

 

Remember when he tried to tell us that Greedo had always  shot first?  "If you look really carefully at the first film, you can see he does shoot first, it's, uh, just silent... and, um, invisible. Yeah, honestly." 

 

And Hutts don't have any immunity in EoE.  It's reflected in their high Willpower and Nobody's Fool talents, which makes sense.



#17 Vonpenguin

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:48 AM

Now let's look at this, I can think of four attempts at influencing someone with the force from the movies, the classic "These are not the droids you are looking for", Obi waan gives the famous weak willed line, but it's also worth noting what he was doing was pretty easy to rationalise "It's just some old man and his grandson, no need to see their papers. These can't be the droids There are probably 1000 r2 models on this dirt ball alone, they don't pay me enough to drag in every last on."

 

Jabba, strong willed and also, Luke was trying to get him to release his prisoners, "Show weakness in front of my men and mercy to my enemy? I'd be kiled in a month!"

 

Watto, Toydarions being strong willed, a businessman probably being more strong willed then most at least in haggling, "No I'm not going to sell my valuable engine part for currency that's useless in this part of space!"

 

Drug dealer, probably extremely weak willed, "This guy is way too straight laced to buy from me. maybe this whole dealer thing isn't working out, I'll sleep on it."

 

So both successful attempt were about things that the victim could have much more easily rationalized as their own thoughts anyway. Add in that the other two targets are in jobs were stubbornness and resolve are virtues and even setting aside species it makes sense.


Edited by Vonpenguin, 22 July 2014 - 03:50 AM.

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#18 Krieger22

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:01 AM

Lucas does it all the time.  I love the originals, but it's pretty clear he's just making stuff up as he goes along. In the first one, Luke & Leia are clearly intended to be the romantic leads.  Then it was a hit, he got to make further movies, and realised his big-name actor didn't have much to do, so he hooks Han up with Leia.  Luke has to be moved aside, so - yay! - suddenly they are brother and sister! Then Lucas says that he'd always intended that to be the case, because he's such a genius.

 

Remember when he tried to tell us that Greedo had always  shot first?  "If you look really carefully at the first film, you can see he does shoot first, it's, uh, just silent... and, um, invisible. Yeah, honestly." 

 

And Hutts don't have any immunity in EoE.  It's reflected in their high Willpower and Nobody's Fool talents, which makes sense.

First of all, the mind trick failing happens two times over the course of six movies. That's a very long way from "all the time".

 

And why did it fail? In Phantom Menace, if Qui-Gon's mind trick had succeeded on Watto, he would have gotten the hyperdrive parts, they would have fixed the ship and been on their way without ever encountering Anakin. Boom, no Darth Vader, no more prequels, no original trilogy. And if Luke had succeeded in influencing Jabba everyone would have left Tatooine quietly, no awesome Pit of Carkoon scene, Jabba still alive and kicking. Would have made for a much more boring move. People don't like boring, people like action and excitiement. If you write a story where all challenges are overcome with, literally, a handwave you're doing a lousy job of it.

 

Oh, and having Greedo shoot first had nothing to do with Lucas. They had to change that scene when re-releasing the digitally enhanced edition of the original trilogy in order to not be slapped with a PG-13 rating. I suspect Lucas' "Greedo always shot first" remark was just him being a troll - have a look at his T-shirt in this image: http://www.geekologi...-shot-first.jpg



#19 Jegergryte

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:47 AM

I always thought that people made up stories as they went along. Writing up ideas, events, encounters and so on ... is there another way?


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#20 whafrog

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:44 AM

Lucas does it all the time.  I love the originals, but it's pretty clear he's just making stuff up as he goes along. In the first one, Luke & Leia are clearly intended to be the romantic leads.  Then it was a hit, he got to make further movies, and realised his big-name actor didn't have much to do, so he hooks Han up with Leia.  Luke has to be moved aside, so - yay! - suddenly they are brother and sister! Then Lucas says that he'd always intended that to be the case, because he's such a genius.

 

Those are different, and personally don't bother me at all.

 

But you're missing the point.  Your mind-trick ass-pull argument makes no sense.  The only way for it to make sense is if you assume that Luke or Qui Gon are *real persons* and they wanted to mind-trick somebody, then bad old Lucas came along and said "neener neener, you can't!"  It's like you're arguing that some other agency wrote the mind trick attempt, but only Lucas wrote the mind trick failure.

 

Lucas wrote the mind-trick attempt and failure into the script, presumably with some intention.  Maybe to show a more variable universe, maybe to show that the Jedi weren't all-powerful, or always right, or Luke was still in training, or Qui Gon was a bit of a maverick.


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