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#1 adamdynris

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:06 PM


If I play follower of the Two Gods in a conquest deck, Greyjoy as out of house. Did he have prized 1 if it is killed?? Text say "instead put it on the bottom of your deck" he is not killed... Right?

#2 Khudzlin

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:11 PM

Yes, he is. Most replacement effects (identified by the word "instead") change only the destination of the card (in this case, to the bottom of the deck instead of the dead pile), not the nature of the effect that makes the card leave play (in this case, a kill effect).

 

Exceptions are very rare (as far as I know, only Bronn Core Set) and use wording like "instead of killing that character".



#3 ktom

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:12 PM

When a replacement effect changes the destination of a card that is removed from play (eg, "moribund:bottom of deck" instead of "moribund:dead pile" when killed), you look at HOW it was removed from play, not to WHERE it ends up, when considering passives, costs, Responses, etc.. That's the whole reason Darkstar can be used with Maester of the Sun and Doubting Septa or The High Septon are brilliant ways to pay the cost of Harrenhal. 

 

So Follower of Two Gods (and all the other HOLY characters with similar effects) are still considered killed, and you initiate passives and Responses to them being killed -- including Prized.

This is even referred to in the FAQ's entry on non-characters acting as characters. It mentions that when a non-character character is killed, it is put in the discard pile instead (don't remember the exact words, but it follows replacement effect wording similar to Follower of Two Gods), but that you still Respond to the card being killed.



#4 MQSi

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 07:52 AM

I am still confused about Core Set Bronn's "instead" and what consequences follow from not removing the chosen card from play after it is killed. So can i use the chosen card for Harrenhal? And can i trigger responses that need that card to be killed?



#5 ktom

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 08:20 AM

No. Core-Bronn is a special case.

 

Normal replacement effects, like the ones discussed above, say things like "when X would be killed, put it on the bottom of your deck instead." So the "kill" still happens and it's just what you do to the card after it is killed that changes. The "kill" effect doesn't change into a "put on bottom of deck" effect; rather, the kill effect now puts the dead character on the bottom of the deck instead in the dead pile (as it would normally do).

 

Core-Bronn, however, reads "when X would be killed, stand Bronn instead of killing X." Because of that extra text, the "kill X" effect specifically does NOT happen at all; rather, the "kill" effect DOES change into a "stand Bronn" effect. Since the entire effect changes from a "kill X" effect to a "stand Bronn" effect, standing Bronn is what happens and what you would respond to.

 

So, unlike the other, normal replacement effects, Bronn stops a "kill" from happening. So you can NOT use the chosen card for Harrenhal (unless Bronn is already standing at the time) and you would play passives and responses to the "stand," not to the "kill."



#6 HastAttack

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 11:45 AM

Is core Bronn just a wording aberration?

 

I would have thought that Bronn's action is a Save / Cancel effect - but it doesn't say Save / Cancel so when does it get played ... wouldn't the effect occur after the "killed" character has gone moribund?



#7 ktom

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 12:26 PM

No, Bronn is not an aberration in wording. He is a reprint from the CCG days when "total replacement" effects like his were more numerous (though still rare). 

 

Bronn's ability is a regular action that sets up a lasting effect on the chosen character. It has to be used before the chosen character is killed so that the lasting effect is active when the kill effect is resolving. Since it's not a Response, you could never be able to use it after the character is killed -- even if was possible to stop a card that is already moribund from leaving play.



#8 HastAttack

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 01:25 PM

Thanks - I forgot that you had to trigger Bronn before anyone is killed



#9 MQSi

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 06:41 AM

First of all thanks for your quick answers ktom.  But i would be happy about  some more clarifcation:

 

So „instead of killing“ is a fixed expression for total replacement?  Let’s say i would change septa s text to „If doubting Septa would be killed, instead put it on the bottom of your deck and draw 1 card instead of killing her.“   Does that mean the same rules (no legal target for harrenhal and no response ) apply to her?

 

To me „instead of killing“ reads like a clarification. So i saw the problem with bronns ability in the change from moribund:deathpile to non-moribund during step 4 of the action that killed the chosen character.

 

And finally: Does total replacement even mean that i cant use the character chosen by bronn use to satisfy military claim (if bronn is kneeling)?



#10 ktom

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 07:36 AM

So „instead of killing“ is a fixed expression for total replacement?  Let’s say i would change septa s text to „If doubting Septa would be killed, instead put it on the bottom of your deck and draw 1 card instead of killing her.“   Does that mean the same rules (no legal target for harrenhal and no response ) apply to her?

 

Yes. This is a fixed part of the game's template rules. Adding the extra words at the end of Doubting Septa would have made her work as you say. (Although, note that when something is killed to pay a cost, it is not a target of the effect it pays for. Only things that are expressly chosen count as "targets.")

 

To me „instead of killing“ reads like a clarification. So i saw the problem with bronns ability in the change from moribund:deathpile to non-moribund during step 4 of the action that killed the chosen character.

 

I know that it does read like that, but "plain meaning" and template rules are not always 100% the same. 

 

Just as an exact description of the timing, Bronn's lasting effect is still a replacement effect, so it doesn't happen in Step 4 as a passive - after the chosen character becomes "moribund:dead pile." Rather, it happens in Step 3, changing the way the effect resolves so that the chosen character never becomes moribund in the first place, while Bronn stands. (The general rule is that replacement effects change the way something resolves. In a normal replacement effect like Doubting Septa, the same timing applies: the replacement is applied in Step 3 so that the kill effect results in "moribund:bottom of deck" for the character, instead of the usual "moribund:dead pile.")

 

And finally: Does total replacement even mean that i cant use the character chosen by bronn use to satisfy military claim (if bronn is kneeling)?

 

As mentioned above, replacements are applied at the point of resolution and should not be "anticipated" at the point of initiation. So a "total replacement" like Bronn's only changes what normally happens after initiation, but not before. Military claim still initiates (and the character under Bronn's effect is still a legal target for being killed; there is nothing saying the card cannot be killed). You would still have the chance to save the character from being killed. But when the MIL claim resolves, it changes from a "kill X" effect to a "stand Bronn" effect. From that point on, you use passives and Responses to standing Bronn, rather than attempting to "kill X." But Military claim has already initiated, so you don't get to go back and initiate it again just because nothing died.

 

Note that when you kill something to pay a cost (like with Harrenhal), you are using the kill to fuel what comes after the kill. So with Bronn, since the kill doesn't happen, you didn't put any fuel into the effect and it also doesn't happen. Under FAQ 3.6, since you know nothing will happen based on the game as it exists in Step 1, you aren't allowed to try to pay a cost with something that won't be dead by the end of Step 1. With normal replacement effects, it's different because the kill happens (and you fuel the effect by paying the cost) even though you do something with the dead card other than putting it in the dead pile.






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