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Force push?


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#81 awayputurwpn

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:27 PM

Kit Fisto in TCW: "Those who have power should restrain themselves from using it." When his old apprentice Nahdar goes and Force-shoves a bunch of droids he had already destroyed with his lightsaber, Fisto reprimands him for his lack of restraint.

This is one of the blurry lines between dark side and light side. But lifting an opponent to extreme range and then dropping him to kill him? Yeah, dark side. You can make a case for "self-defense," but using the Force in such an unrestrained manner could be likened to using a heavy repeating blaster to kill a fly. Use a fly swatter for the bug, and use the blaster for people who are shooting back at you. Likewise, use the Force when necessary, not when it's "justifiable."

Yoda is fighting a Sith Lord and uses the Force to push him away. And before that, he uses the Force to knock out his honor guard, instead of allowing them to stay standing and later having to use his lightsaber to end their lives while he fought the Emperor. Note his style of fighting Dooku and Sidious: he only matches power with power, refusing to escalate but rather only to defend and try to force a surrender. Dooku hurls lightning, Yoda deflects it (throws a bit back at Dooku as an object lesson). Dooku throws a building at Yoda and his friends. Yoda uses the Force to deflect the chunks of rock, instead of chucking them back at Dooku. Sidious throws Senate pod after Senate pod at Yoda, who finally uses one to stop the Sith Lord's assault and give him time to close in. Always de-escalating the situation, Yoda is.

To me, that is badass.

And like I said, it's a blurry line. But the PC who routinely kills his foes by lifting and dropping them with telekinesis is, IMO, obviously well along the path to the Dark Side.
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#82 Aservan

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:54 PM

It can be debatable whether or not the "Force Drop" is light or dark side. I'm not sure there isn't a certain level of sadism in "disarming" someone in a cantina fight. Bleeding out from having your arm lopped off doesn't sound like a painless way to die.

 

While dismemberment isn't a guaranteed death, neither is falling from a massive height.

 

My biggest issue with falling is that it's lame. It lacks drama. It's also somewhat easier to counter than a short sharp acceleration. Maybe everyone in Star Wars has a cape as a sort of emergency parachute. I mean style and a high tech parachute all in one! There also seems to be an unwritten rule that Force powered upward acceleration is slower than horizontal movement. All lofted bad guys get to try and grab something before they go for their round trip?

 

Everyone's game is gonna be different, but we observe the rule that using gravity as a weapon is generally too boring. Star Wars has way too much third dimensional movement for people to be so afraid of falling. I mean Coruscant alone would have repulser chutes be standard safety gear on all outside trips. Now consider Cloud City and a nice gust of wind...



#83 Ghostofman

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:24 PM

Just leveraging the narrative... if the target "dies" from the force drop you could go with something where he's just launched out of frame or off into the distance. Kinda like Palpy did to Windu.

 

Personally though I see Force Drop (as well as AT-AT missile) as a seriously thorny issue when you start talking darkside effects. Chucking a hydrospanner at someone is harmful but is something that is survivable and leaves the possibility that the opponent will decide to give up/flee/play dead. Dropping someone from Medium range altitude inflicts sufficient damage that most NPCs won't survive, which takes the power use from a mere "attack," to a willful decision to end the targets life. I'd even go so far as to say a GM wouldn't be totally out of bounds to levy some kind of penalty akin to using dark pips.

 

By comparison hacking off an arm with a lightsaber isn't pleasant, but most Rivals can (at least in theory) survive a single hit from a glowstick, and it doesn't require actual force-usage to do.


Edited by Ghostofman, 22 July 2014 - 01:25 PM.

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#84 awayputurwpn

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:39 PM

Say a Jedi is in a cantina and senses an impending bear (*ahem*...bar) fight with potential deaths of innocents as a result. He tries to defuse the situation, but the dude's already out for blood and pulls a blaster. The Jedi makes a targeted strike against a bad guy's gun arm. 2 setbacks and 2 difficulty. *fszook* 13 damage, no more arm, bad guy still alive but, for all intents and purposes, out of the fight. No one else is hurt.

Different Jedi in a similar situation, but outdoors, uses the Force to propel the gunman meters in the air. Dropping from Medium range is 30 damage, plus 20 strain that bypasses soak. Not targeted, just crushing force spread out through the entire body. Even being dropped from Short range is 10 (soaked) damage and 10 (not soaked) strain, which will still take out most minions and rivals.


Which Jedi showed proper restraint?

Edited by awayputurwpn, 22 July 2014 - 04:45 PM.

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#85 2P51

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:41 PM

I'd have to go with the first because "bear" fights in a bar get out of hand quick.....


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#86 awayputurwpn

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:44 PM

I'd have to go with the first because "bear" fights in a bar get out of hand quick.....


I swear I read that over twice before posting. Lol.

Situation three: a bear, a Jedi, and a Yuuzhan Vong walk into a cantina...
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#87 Aluminium Falcon

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:14 PM

This reminds me of a similar discussion regarding "Force Choke" (not in context of EotE, by the way) and the morality of it's use.

 

Despite the symbolic/narrative uses... It's really just telekinesis.

 

As a GM I would rule that in all but the most bizarre and unusual of circumstances, "Force Choke" is a dark side to some degree act due to the fear it would cause in the recipient.

 

In addition to his own obsessions and desires, elements of this can be seen in Anakin. Despite his deep belief that he was making things better, the impact on other people fostered fear and suspicion. 

Is he flat-out responsible for the reactions and feelings of others? I'd say "no" but he is responsible for for the carelessness that helped create the environment in which such feelings developed.

 

With that in mind, perhaps Jedi should not only be mindful of their own motivations but of the unintended consequences and reactions.



#88 Ghostofman

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:01 PM

Sit 1) The Jedi doesn't actively use the force to commit an act, depending on the wt of the target he may not have even exceeded the at. Furthermore he's sent a clear message to the rest of the room, so that bear will know to just keep drinking his drink.

 

Sit 2) The Jedi does use the force to actively harm another creature. Unless the target was especially tough, that wt is exceeded and the Jedi knew full well that was going to be the result. I wouldn't automatically drop some kind of dark side penalty on him, but I would be more inclined to depending on additional details like if the Jedi could do a weapon yank or if the location was especially full of other baddies and impressing them with this display was a good way to diffuse a much worse situation.

 

Sit 3) My money is on the 12 inch pianist.

 

Edit: discussing this with my lady friend added a good narrative point too. The kind of injury inflicted in sit 1 is clean and repairable using available tech. The injuries in sit 2 can be a lot more complex and are harder to repair.


Edited by Ghostofman, 22 July 2014 - 08:19 PM.

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#89 Aluminium Falcon

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:00 PM

The Jedi M.O. (particularly when GL is writing) seems to be "go to talk, but go armed"*

When the Senate sends Jedi, perhaps the message is: Too dangerous for just diplomats but too delicate for soldiers so send the Jedi.

For whatever reason, the idea of a non-Jedi skilled in both (while in evidence) is not something that is readily relied upon.

 

Interestingly, this plays a into how Careers work in the FFG, somewhat.  Take all the added Specs you can afford, you are still always seen as a Colonist/Politico.

 

Anyhoo... 

Jedi Knights seem to have both roles inherent, but within limits.

There is no evidence that the Jedi would have authority to draft a treaty and their inability to fight a war is mentioned a few times.

 

 

*Obi-Wan at Mos Eisley, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon above Naboo, Mace and posse at the Supreme Chancellor's office, Col. Mustard in the conservatory...


Edited by Aluminium Falcon, 23 July 2014 - 06:41 AM.

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#90 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 02:39 PM

Jedi in the films seem to be more of the mindset of "proper application of force to resolve the situation."  After all, you don't use a bazooka to kill a spider.

 

Yoda could very likely have easily demolished most of the Senate himself during his fight with Palpatine, but over eight centuries of Jedi training kept him to not doing so, where Palps had such sense of restraint.  If anything, Yoda seems to willingly fight on his opponent's level, as he probably could have crushed Dooku quite easily; problem was by the time he realized just how strong the dark side had made Palpatine, it was too little, too late.

 

So in the scenarios that Awayputyrwpn suggested, the first one actually acted like a Jedi, only using as much force to resolve the dilemma.  Where there alternative options?  Quite possibly, but they may have been outside that character's ability to implement (hard to use a mind trick if you don't have that power) or they may have been tried and failed (much like Obi-Wan's efforts to diffuse the situation between Luke, Doctor Evazan, and Ponda Baba).  The second fell prey to the "when all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem and showed no restraint.

 

I think it was GM Chris that suggested a very simple guideline for this sort of thing.  While the context was "does this deserve a dark side point?" for Saga Edition, it can be applied for "is the character showing the proper restraint for a Jedi?"  The guideline was "would this sort of action make Palpatine chuckle with glee?" and I think it's a pretty solid one, even if one's game doesn't incorporate (or want to include) some means of tracking whether a PC is on the fast track to becoming a dark sider.


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#91 Josep Maria

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:05 PM

I know that some people don't like this option, but, I will propose it anyway.

 

Roleplay! My player's characters is a wise Jedi Master, and even knowing some destructive and REALLY useful powers, he just don't use them because he is interpratating his character (even if this causes serious problems or a close death).

Also he tries to preserve the "cinematic feeling" from Star Wars. When a bad guy appear with a lightsaber or a blaster gun, he don't use to disarm with the Force just "because he can" the enemy and finishes the combat. He prefers to roll a Charm or another social check before that. An even more, he uses to disarm or broke their weapons more like a "cinematic way".

 

After destroying targets weapons: Now can we talk quietly? [Obi-Wan-like smile]" Or another Hollywood scene like that...yeah! XD

 

So, I know that this isn't a fix, but for people that just want to follow the SW spirit instead push 7 and use the biggest weapon/force power he/she haves, this can be a good choice: Roleplay :D

 

Hope this helped!


Edited by Josep Maria, 23 July 2014 - 04:07 PM.

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