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#41 Maelora

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:24 PM

This is an unresolvable problem with force-users.  They have 'magic' in a world that is otherwise mundane.

 

In-universe, they have (particularly in the last 20 years of the EU) become so uber-cool, so 'badass', so SO much better than anyone and everything else...  The original movies were more restrained, but even so, anyone of any importance is ultimately a Jedi. Even Han could be eliminated from the movies without majorly affecting the plot trajectory. (Yes, he's cool and everything, but after the Death Star he's just along for the ride, or just baggage. Essentially, he's just the 'love interest'...)

 

EoE impressed me by making the Han and Wedge -type characters cool again.  I liked the relatively-restrained way they deferred the Jedi, but gave us a taste of the Force. It wouldn't feel like Star Wars without it.

 

But some people will be leery of overpowered FU-style shenanegans. Force-use has destroyed the balance of every Star Wars game up to this point, after all, rendering non-Jedi into support roles. Characters like Leia or Kyle Katarn, who should never have been Jedi, were made so - just so we understood they were important. This unpalatable trend reached its nadir with the horror of Eff-You; Force-users as anime superheroes. 

 

Players are going to want Force-users to be awesome, as depicted in the various media. GMs are going to want balance, as far as that's possible. I guess it's going to be down to every table to find its own balance, especially when F&D comes out. I haven't nerfed Move myself, our Exile is a glass cannon and works as intended... but I can see why other GMs might.

 

(and if Force-use is prompting lively debate now, imagine how much more intense it will be when F&D drops and they give us full-on Jedi...)


Edited by Maelora, 20 July 2014 - 01:49 PM.

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#42 2P51

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:32 PM

I could see some sort of mechanic in force and destiny imposing a more severe restriction or consequence converting dark into the light side points. That would certainly allay my issues with Move.


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#43 Josep Maria

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:37 PM

Maelora 23rd August! :P

 

In one of my games, one of my players have a FR6 Jedi with more than 1.800 XP... and he still suffers every time he fight droids or Storm Troopers XD

 

In general therms, when he rolls FR he uses to get above 2 pips. In some excpetional cases he rolled 6 or 7, but 2 uses to be the most common result.

 

He has almost all Move tree and we adapted almost every talent or power scale of power to focus on canon instead balance.

 

Also, we let the commits stack, so he gets about 4 Red Dices when he gets attacked... and he uses to be damaged almost every combat XD

 

So, Force is REALLY powerful, but not overpowered from my point of view.


Edited by Josep Maria, 20 July 2014 - 01:38 PM.

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#44 Maelora

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:45 PM

I could see some sort of mechanic in force and destiny imposing a more severe restriction or consequence converting dark into the light side points. That would certainly allay my issues with Move.

 

Y'see, it's funny, but I really want to get away from all the alignment stuff!

 

The existing mechanic covers all I'll ever need for using the opposite side; flip a Destiny Point, spend some strain for going slightly against your nature.  But that's it, job done.

 

I understand why people want to do the 'fall to the dark side' thing, it's thematic to the movies, but I'd sooner resolve that narratively. I really don't want rules for an alignment system.  Certainly not in the 'Han Shot First' setting of EoE. 


Edited by Maelora, 20 July 2014 - 01:51 PM.


#45 Maelora

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:48 PM

In one of my games, one of my players have a FR6 Jedi with more than 1.800 XP... and he still suffers every time he fight droids or Storm Troopers XD

 

I guess you're using house rules, Josep? I know someone's done some Jedi conversions. 

 

I must admit, I can't see an 1800 XP character having trouble with minions!


Edited by Maelora, 20 July 2014 - 01:48 PM.


#46 Josep Maria

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:55 PM

Well, untill the moment the only "house rules" that we apply are that he have Defense 3 (2 from lightsaber and 1 from... Jedi?), we let stack commits (from Sense for example, thats from where 4 Red comes) and he have a FR6 by... well, we like that XD

 

In general therms he uses to win, but those 1.800+ still have problems with for example a 3Y 1Boost robot minions or a pack of 6 Stormtroopers + 1 Boost from Officer so 3Y 2G 1B... and he have Soak 6 XDD

 

With force, yep, in general therms he always achieve 2 or 3 pips, but, no more. He is a really powerful character but... he fears every combat XDD

 

Actually we are looking for a good combar/space combat patch to try to solve it.

 

And when I mean "Jedi" I mean "strong guy with the Force and that recives some Defense wearing a lightsaber" XD No extra talent or house rules there.


Edited by Josep Maria, 20 July 2014 - 01:57 PM.

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#47 Maelora

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:58 PM

Yes, but how do you get 6 Force Dice using only EoE and AOR? I assume you'd be using someone's homebrew rules for Jedi?



#48 Josep Maria

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:00 PM

From nowhere XD I mean, we decided that that PC must have that FR. The rest is 100% rules with the exception from Commit Stack and Lightsaber add some Defense.


Edited by Josep Maria, 20 July 2014 - 02:01 PM.

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#49 Aluminium Falcon

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 03:14 PM

Not that I expect that they will do this, but "punishment" for darksider activities can be handled in a morally objective manner.

That is to say what is punishment for a player wanting to avoid the dark side could be welcomed by a wannabe Sith.

 

We see a sliver of this in EotE already.  Dark side pips are to be avoided, but it is possible to flip the perspective and play with them as your fuel by default.

 

As the nature of the Galaxy Far Far Away defaults to "Jedi = Good" and "Sith/Darkside = Bad" I think the standard rules should play to that...  However, there could still be a method in place for... oh let's just go with "rage"... to work against a "standard Force-Sensitive" but for a character operating under the "dark side pips as fuel" rules to turn disadvantages* into advantages*. 

Sure that setting may call you "immoral", but your character (and certainly not you as a player) have to accept that they are correct.

 

*I am using the terms advantages and disadvantages in very broad and undefined terms...  I am ill prepared to invent a system, at this time.  Even just by way of example.



#50 Shamrock

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:20 PM

This is an unresolvable problem with force-users.  They have 'magic' in a world that is otherwise mundane.

 

In-universe, they have (particularly in the last 20 years of the EU) become so uber-cool, so 'badass', so SO much better than anyone and everything else...  The original movies were more restrained, but even so, anyone of any importance is ultimately a Jedi. Even Han could be eliminated from the movies without majorly affecting the plot trajectory. (Yes, he's cool and everything, but after the Death Star he's just along for the ride, or just baggage. Essentially, he's just the 'love interest'...)

 

EoE impressed me by making the Han and Wedge -type characters cool again.  I liked the relatively-restrained way they deferred the Jedi, but gave us a taste of the Force. It wouldn't feel like Star Wars without it.

 

But some people will be leery of overpowered FU-style shenanegans. Force-use has destroyed the balance of every Star Wars game up to this point, after all, rendering non-Jedi into support roles. Characters like Leia or Kyle Katarn, who should never have been Jedi, were made so - just so we understood they were important. This unpalatable trend reached its nadir with the horror of Eff-You; Force-users as anime superheroes. 

 

Players are going to want Force-users to be awesome, as depicted in the various media. GMs are going to want balance, as far as that's possible. I guess it's going to be down to every table to find its own balance, especially when F&D comes out. I haven't nerfed Move myself, our Exile is a glass cannon and works as intended... but I can see why other GMs might.

 

(and if Force-use is prompting lively debate now, imagine how much more intense it will be when F&D drops and they give us full-on Jedi...)

That's entirely on the GM.  They don't have to say yes to everyone that wants a jedi, nor should they.  I'll be surprised if I have more then one, actual jedi, in the entire time I run this game.  I've had a wazoo of force users, most of which have died at the hands of the other party members (too liberal with the force use, bountys on them too high to resist), but the party doesn't want to be labeled as "known associates" either.  That seriously cuts into their street cred.

That said, I think most of F&D is going to concentrate on "other" traditions.  Even encouraging them.  I get that from multiple conversations with developers, including the order 66 pod casts, and  even when they first announced the three game settings, they were very careful with the "write-up" on it.  Now this may have changed to meet player demands, over the last two years, but cowing to player demands isn't something FFG is exactly known for.   I have no doubt there will be a blurb for jedi, just don't think it's going to unleash KOTOR on the system.

 

I could see some sort of mechanic in force and destiny imposing a more severe restriction or consequence converting dark into the light side points. That would certainly allay my issues with Move.

It's a narrative system.... if you don't have a consequence for converting dark side points, especially if you're doing it often, then your GM is failing.  There isn't going to be a mechanic for it, nor should there be.  That gives players a line to toe, and rules to support said line. 

I've, personally, had multiple times where the party has killed the force using party members. That's at least 4 times in the last 6 months.  I've had the force take over a character, doing like a werewolf movie, where they wake up half naked and covered in blood, yet responsible for all their actions while "blacked" out.  At the same time, the dark side doesn't care who sees what, doesn't care about security cameras, doesn't care about witnesses  In a bar fight, a dark side influenced character will use force lightening on someone and leave.  Sometimes I don't have the force user black out, I just make them do some evil thing, like force lightening.  They don't get a say in the matter.    I do this with players that fail to "role play" their characters converting to the dark side, being ruled by anger/fear/aggression.   In truth, when they play it, in character, the party kills them, when I have to do it for them... they still end up neck deep in dung.  Authorities after them, bounty hunters, people looking to cash in on the rewards for their capture or kill.  Remember the common populace hates them, and thinks they are responsible for their current living conditions. 

If said vehicle is occupied, said jedi will be accumulating dark side energy for using the force to attack the living.... big no-no.  But that has to be one hell of a strong jedi to be able to grab a sil 4 vehicle.  One that didn't get that strong by being stupid. 


Be well,

 

Sham


#51 Shamrock

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:50 PM

From the pod casts:  I recall there was talk of a lot of tables doing force rating wrong in the first place.  The only way to get a second force rating was at the button of the tree.  Some groups were playing it so if they went into move, and then enhance they increased a force rating for it.  Still others were playing it, if they went into emergent and exile, they got a force rating for each.  Both are wrong!  As mentioned the second force rating is down at the bottom of the tree, something like 100 xp deep, (a pretty gimped character compared to the rest of the party). 

Then it came to force pips.  The first pip was to activate the force.  Then you could use the second/third/fourth pips to increase the things you could do, assuming they were all light side points.  If not, then you had to convert, etc... And GMs were highly encouraged to make the dark side "a thing".   This is where a lot of GMs were going very wrong. They were not making the dark side affect the character tapping into it. This is hard to do without telling the character what to do or how to act, which players tend to rebel against, but let the player know that giving up portions of his character is the penalty for tapping into the dark side. See my previous post for some examples. 
 
So for example, move... assuming you rolled two white pips.. you activated the move with one pip, and your second could increase the speed (you have to as the default speed is too slow to do damage) ... but now you're stuck as you already used your action (to activate).  Regardless, now you could move the object, but you only had control over it within the "short" range... as soon as it leaves said range it is either a "wild throw" (you used a pip to up the speed) or drops, unless you had a third pip to increase the range.  

Some notes  on move: 

Move only works on objects. You can't use it on people/beings/ cats/ etc..

 

If you're trying to disarm someone (this assumes they have a weapon in hand at the ready), or move anything on their person, then you roll discipline as your attack roll, and treat it like a normal attack. You have range bands (provided you activated them beyond short).  Also, all dodges and what-not are in effect.  Then, If you get through all that they get at the very least a brawn roll (athletics being more applicable) to oppose it, the "strength of your move" dictating the number of purples opposing their brawn.  (none of his applies to minions whom you're welcome to disarm to your hearts content provided you have the proper magnitude, speed (can't disarm with default speed), and range, ).

 

Throwing things into people came out to something like falling damage.  It was negligible as they were able to soak most of it.  Unless you dropped a ship on them or something (but that’s evil force at work).  They still got a dodge (etc…) if they were aware of the attack,  you still had to hit them with a discipline roll  you had to be able to reach them (upgraded range if need be), so unless they were in short range, you needed two force dice to do it (activation/speed/size increase).  You also had to be able to see the target. 

If I remember the rest I’ll post it.  I found an old post where I referenced it and that’s what was in the post.

 
These were just developer recommendations, and how they run it in their games.  They know the descriptions in the book were kinda vague.  Your GM is allowed to hand wave as they see fit, but risks making jedi too powerful for EtoE (only system out at the time of the podcast).


Edited by Shamrock, 20 July 2014 - 11:55 PM.

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Be well,

 

Sham


#52 Inquisitor Tremayne

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:13 AM

Agreed^

 

A lot of it falls on the GM.  I limited the number of Force sensitives to 1 in a group of 5.  I also regularly remind them that using the Force causes disturbances that others can sense, i.e. The Sith and Inquisitors.  So, go ahead and do whatever you can and want within the rules but just know that you are going to bring down a world of hurt on not just yourself but your companions also.  

 

Again, it is all the GM's responsibility.  There are repercussions in the story to being to uber and the GM has to make sure to enforce those responsibilities.  I am sure the other players would not be to happy if their character is killed by an Inquisitor in an effort to get to the Force user in the group.

 

Incidentally I feel the same way about fringe characters in general.  In EotE we are dealing with criminal elements.  Piss off the wrong people and you are probably going to end up dead.  Doesn't matter if you are a PC or not.  There is no PC immunity in my games.



#53 EldritchFire

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:02 AM

Agreed^

 

A lot of it falls on the GM.  I limited the number of Force sensitives to 1 in a group of 5.  I also regularly remind them that using the Force causes disturbances that others can sense, i.e. The Sith and Inquisitors.  So, go ahead and do whatever you can and want within the rules but just know that you are going to bring down a world of hurt on not just yourself but your companions also.  

 

Again, it is all the GM's responsibility.  There are repercussions in the story to being to uber and the GM has to make sure to enforce those responsibilities.  I am sure the other players would not be to happy if their character is killed by an Inquisitor in an effort to get to the Force user in the group.

 

Incidentally I feel the same way about fringe characters in general.  In EotE we are dealing with criminal elements.  Piss off the wrong people and you are probably going to end up dead.  Doesn't matter if you are a PC or not.  There is no PC immunity in my games.

 

 

Sounds like giving out Bounty Obligation, to me!

 

-EF



#54 Ghostofman

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:21 AM

 

Agreed^

 

A lot of it falls on the GM.  I limited the number of Force sensitives to 1 in a group of 5.  I also regularly remind them that using the Force causes disturbances that others can sense, i.e. The Sith and Inquisitors.  So, go ahead and do whatever you can and want within the rules but just know that you are going to bring down a world of hurt on not just yourself but your companions also.  

 

Again, it is all the GM's responsibility.  There are repercussions in the story to being to uber and the GM has to make sure to enforce those responsibilities.  I am sure the other players would not be to happy if their character is killed by an Inquisitor in an effort to get to the Force user in the group.

 

Incidentally I feel the same way about fringe characters in general.  In EotE we are dealing with criminal elements.  Piss off the wrong people and you are probably going to end up dead.  Doesn't matter if you are a PC or not.  There is no PC immunity in my games.

 

 

Sounds like giving out Bounty Obligation, to me!

 

-EF

 

Or you can just use that when their existing Obligation pops.

 

A previous system discussed this GM perspective too (I want to say WEG in a short and shockingly thoughtful and foresight filled bit, but WEG didn't really like talking darksiders and WotC delved more in to the topic so it might have been them). It talked about how when running a Darkside character the GM should tweak the story to make it more tragic. Making even victories feel kinda hollow because of what you had to do to get there, and having darkside characters goals and functions be warped so even "good" intentions usually result in "bad" actions or results. Sorta like how in RotS Darth Vader brings peace to the galaxy by just killing the leadership of the CIS and putting Palpy in charge.

 

It might come out like a Pally-hunt a little bit, but if the players keep flipping point and acting like a-holes moving the story in a direction that results in less shooing between good and bad, and more choosing between bad and bad might make a statement.

 

Also you can use NPCs to point this out a bit too. When the NPCs that show up to help the players stop being friendly Mon Cals, wookies, and humans, and start being abrasive and selfish aqualish, gamorreans, and quarrans, the players might start to get the hint. Nothing like having that totally awesome bounty hunter you've run with for three adventures turning his back when the going gets tough to make you think maybe you're not hanging with the best crowd...


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#55 Maelora

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:48 AM

So for example, move... assuming you rolled two white pips.. you activated the move with one pip, and your second could increase the speed (you have to as the default speed is too slow to do damage) ...

 

Move only works on objects. You can't use it on people/beings/ cats/ etc..

 

 

First point, there's absolutely nothing to say the Control upgrades require a pip. The ability to move objects at speed is a part of the basic power (assuming you have that upgrade) and doesn't require another pip or action.

 

You need to spend a pip to:

 

- one to activate the Basic power 

- one to activate no. of extra targets up to your Magnitude

- one to active all of your Strength upgrades for larger targets

- one to activate any Range upgrades up to your max

 

And that's it, by RAW.   I think if you're requiring more than that, you're seriously nerfing the power, unless you have 6 dice like Josep has :)   Asking for one pip per upgrade makes using the power beyond what EoE and AoR characters can attain. If you want to play a really low-magic campaign, that's your prerogative, but I can't see many players wanting to buy into it, then. 

 

 

Finally, there's nothing I can see that prevents you moving living beings.  It vaguely says 'objects' which I assume translates to 'things'.  I can't see any reason why you couldn't hurl rancors if you can hurl ATATs.  The fluff for the power says 'theoretically the Force can move anything' and I assume living things come under 'anything'. 

 

I'm sure I've seen force-users chuck enemies around in the various videogames like KotOR. Bastila does it to Mission at one point. 

 

Influence doesn't work on non-living things like droids, but it specifically mentions that. 


Edited by Maelora, 21 July 2014 - 10:49 AM.

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#56 2P51

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:51 AM

Aside from my opinion of the OP nature of Move, there is clearly canon that contradicts the 'no moving beings' ruling.  They do it constantly in TCW.  In addition the gray box on p. 279 in EoE makes the suggestion of it being used to catch a falling colleague.


Edited by 2P51, 21 July 2014 - 10:53 AM.

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#57 Maelora

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:52 AM

Throwing things into people came out to something like falling damage.  It was negligible as they were able to soak most of it.  Unless you dropped a ship on them or something (but that’s evil force at work). 

 

Why on earth would that be the case?

 

Why is dropping a ship on your enemy any different to shooting him or chopping his head off with a lightsaber? 

 

Dropping a ship on an orphanage or something might count as bad, but normal combat doesn't count as that. In the movies, Luke kills a whole bunch of people in every film. 



#58 Maelora

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:53 AM

Aside from my opinion of the OP nature of Move, there is clearly canon that contradicts the 'no moving beings' ruling.  They do it constantly in TCW.

 

Last time out, our Exile force-fed a Hutt a thermal detonator, then launched him up in the air to Extreme range like a gory firework.  Yes, that added some Obligation points...


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#59 Dbuntu

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:00 AM

 

Finally, there's nothing I can see that prevents you moving living beings.  It vaguely says 'objects' which I assume translates to 'things'.  I can't see any reason why you couldn't hurl rancors if you can hurl ATATs.  The fluff for the power says 'theoretically the Force can move anything' and I assume living things come under 'anything'. 

 

I'm sure I've seen force-users chuck enemies around in the various videogames like KotOR. Bastila does it to Mission at one point. 

 

Influence doesn't work on non-living things like droids, but it specifically mentions that. 

 

Correct. You can Move anything that you have the upgrades and pips to Move. Humans are Sil-1, so at Short range you could Move a human with two pips (assuming you've got the required talents)



#60 2P51

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:02 AM

 

Aside from my opinion of the OP nature of Move, there is clearly canon that contradicts the 'no moving beings' ruling.  They do it constantly in TCW.

 

Last time out, our Exile force-fed a Hutt a thermal detonator, then launched him up in the air to Extreme range like a gory firework.  Yes, that added some Obligation points...

 

They float grenades to targets in the TCW as well.  There are creative ways to use it for certain.  I just see the silhouette issue as power creep that needs to be reined in.  Shoving enemies hither and yon, floating grenades, all good.  They also use it as a sort of Force grav chute in TCW, also creative I think.


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