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#21 Ghostofman

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:02 AM

Also just thinking about it even the AT-AT chuck isn't that powerful.

 

If you wanted to be a RAW monkey you'd need to activate the power, activate the full str upgrade, activate or multi activate the range upgrade if you want any distance. The magnitude upgrade too as no matter want you chuck you need that to hit multiple targets (excluding grouped minions), and finally the damage is measured in personal scale not vehicle, so the at-ats armor can take it.

 

So you got a Lotta xp there, 4 pips for the full monty, probably more if you haven't maxed the tree, so you're gonna need some decent FR, minimum 2, more if you actually want to do it reliably (assuming you aren't calling on the dark side, which still isn't a sure thing depending on what you are doing and the pip count you need), and the AT-AT will only go down narratively, as you can't actually inflict HT or crits...


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#22 2P51

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:06 AM

A lot more pips at my table.  1 for the power, 4 for the silhouette, 1 to throw, 1 for each range band.  Makes it possible still but not something that a lowby Exile or Emergent is going to accomplish.


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#23 Ghostofman

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:20 AM

A lot more pips at my table.  1 for the power, 4 for the silhouette, 1 to throw, 1 for each range band.  Makes it possible still but not something that a lowby Exile or Emergent is going to accomplish.

So you need minimum FR4, and a good roll? Why not just nix strength above 3?


Edited by Ghostofman, 20 July 2014 - 10:25 AM.

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#24 Maelora

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:36 AM

Maelora, you simply must tell me more about these Move stories.  Mine are so limited to my player using a B1 "Roger Roger" droid and hitting him against another B1.

 

Yes, whenever our Exile gets 3 pips, it's 'Stormtrooper Skittles' time.  (Or TIE Skittles time, seeing as how it costs no more to Move any object up to your maximum Silhouette Upgrade....)

 

Move seems kinda overpowered, but Jo is Brawn 2 with no armour, and even a minion with a rifle could one-shot her if she's not careful.  Plus, she has no combat skills outside telekinesis and shouting stormtroopers to death using Improved Scathing Tirade. And trust me, hearing 'HEY STORMTROOPERS - YOU SUCK!!!' gets old when it's used every single round.

 

Also, a full Move tree costs 150 XP, plus another 130 to get the second Force dice.  That's a significant investment, I think.  

 

I see your point about not wanting a repeat of the FU nonsense, 2P51, but if you nerf Move so hard, surely nobody would want it? 

 

(and as Ghost just said, if you really don't want PCs using the Millenium Falcon or an ATAT as a bowling ball, why not just cap Move at Silhouette 2 or 3?)


Edited by Maelora, 20 July 2014 - 10:39 AM.

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#25 2P51

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:37 AM

To allow it to still be possible it's just not something that an entry-level user will be able to accomplish. Yoda is clearly straining when he moves the X wing. He has some upgrades to range. So to me to allow an exile to roll two dice and move a walker is ridiculous. Just my table and how I run it, others can do whatever they like, I think my way is more in the spirit of the movies.


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#26 2P51

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:40 AM

 

Maelora, you simply must tell me more about these Move stories.  Mine are so limited to my player using a B1 "Roger Roger" droid and hitting him against another B1.

 

Yes, whenever our Exile gets 3 pips, it's 'Stormtrooper Skittles' time.  (Or TIE Skittles time, seeing as how it costs no more to Move any object up to your maximum Silhouette Upgrade....)

 

Move seems kinda overpowered, but Jo is Brawn 2 with no armour, and even a minion with a rifle could one-shot her if she's not careful.  Plus, she has no combat skills outside telekinesis and shouting stormtroopers to death using Improved Scathing Tirade. And trust me, hearing 'HEY STORMTROOPERS - YOU SUCK!!!' gets old when it's used every single round.

 

Also, a full Move tree costs 150 XP, plus another 130 to get the second Force dice.  That's a significant investment, I think.  

 

I see your point about not wanting a repeat of the FU nonsense, 2P51, but if you nerf Move so hard, surely nobody would want it? 

 

It isn't too hard though. In my opinion someone that had progressed through exile and emergent would have force rating three. Then force and destiny becomes available and they move through one of those trees so they become force rating four that and sort of capability becomes possible.  I don't think that's too hard at all I think it's perfectly realistic.


Edited by 2P51, 20 July 2014 - 10:49 AM.

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#27 Maelora

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:48 AM

 and finally the damage is measured in personal scale not vehicle, so the at-ats armor can take it.

 

 

Actually we just ruled that being launched upwards to Extreme range and then crashing down wipes them out. (Heck, Luke took one out with a tow cable on Hoth. Those things are screwed if they get toppled over...)

 

Sometimes you have to be realistic.  If I took my car or motorbike to the top of the 23-story building where I work, and heaved it off the roof, it would be scrap metal when it hit the pavement. 

 

Likewise, we don't use Soak if someone is, say, stabbing you while you're asleep.  Otherwise it would be impossible to hurt a 9 Soak PC even if he was stark naked if you were just a normal 2 Brawn human with a kitchen knife. ("I keep stabbing him, but he just rolls over and goes back to sleep!") 


Edited by Maelora, 20 July 2014 - 10:52 AM.


#28 Maelora

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:54 AM

To allow it to still be possible it's just not something that an entry-level user will be able to accomplish. Yoda is clearly straining when he moves the X wing. He has some upgrades to range. So to me to allow an exile to roll two dice and move a walker is ridiculous. Just my table and how I run it, others can do whatever they like, I think my way is more in the spirit of the movies.

 

I agree that anything that keeps FU silliness to a minimum is a good thing. 

 

Silhouette 4 is about the minimum I could envisage. 


Edited by Maelora, 20 July 2014 - 10:54 AM.


#29 2P51

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:06 AM

I think it's worth mentioning I am only pointing out the whole silhouette 4 scenario.  Under my method a FR 4 character would be able to flick something like speeder bikes about willy nilly, which I'm ok with.  It's just there has to be more restriction on silhouette size than 10 points of xp per step imo and I don't think a pip for each silhouette size is unfair particularly.


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#30 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:12 AM

Yeah that's the thing to remember with the Move power, is that it's blatantly obvious.  Maybe note quite "clown at a funeral" level of obvious, but up there.

 

Relying on Move as your "go to" combat tactic is going to draw a lot of attention, especially if you have a routine habit of going up against Imperials.

 

Maelora's got a valid point in that unless you've got a character with a Force Rating of 2 or better, Move really isn't that reliable of a power, and even with FR 2 the best you can reliably hope for is 2 Force Points, which lets you activate the base power and one upgrade.  Of course, you could spend a Destiny Point and suffer some strain to convert those dark side pips into usable Force Points, but that's reliant upon having that Destiny Point available in the first place.  There's also the as-of-yet undisclosed matter of long-term repercussions of becoming too reliant upon the dark side, but that's a matter for Force and Destiny to discuss.  Oh, and if you want to have that nifty Sense defensive upgrade going, that's going to cut down on your Force awesomeness as well since that's one less Force die you have available to roll.

 

To say nothing of having to spend all that XP to jack up Move to be that powerful in the first place, which is XP that other characters are spending on skills and talents.  In one game I'm in, it's not my "minor Jedi" (Human Scoundrel/Emergent) that's the biggest bad-ass in the group, it's the Wookiee Commando that can either shoot you dead with his blaster rifle or hack you into bloody bits with his vibro-ax that's the real combat powerhouse of the group.  The Chiss Tactician is no slouch either with her blaster pistol, and the Outlaw Tech isn't too far off either given the modifications she's started to apply to her heavy blaster pistol.

 

As for the "Force Unleashed" levels of nuttiness, I will admit that I can see the allure for some in playing a Force-user of that degree of power.  It does make for a fun video game, but having played one such PC (in Saga Edition), I assure the novelty wears off fairly quickly when hurling massive Imperial walkers around like they were marbles becomes a trivial skill check that you have to struggle to fail.


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#31 Maelora

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:15 AM

When F&D comes along, and PCs with 4 or 5 Force Dice become the norm, I might feel the same way, 2P51. 

 

But as I don't allow cross-book multi-classing, the maximum the PCs can have is 2, which requires either a good roll, or standing close to the ATAT (within Short range) which has problems of its own.

 

And requires over 300 XP in any case.  You can get a lot of skills to maximum levels with 300 XP.


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#32 Revanchist7

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:24 AM

I don't feel as though Yoda was especially strained with the X-wing.  He's concentrating rather deeply, but he picks it up from the bottom of a swamp rather quickly and gracefully.

 

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#33 Revanchist7

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:25 AM

I think it's worth mentioning I am only pointing out the whole silhouette 4 scenario.  Under my method a FR 4 character would be able to flick something like speeder bikes about willy nilly, which I'm ok with.  It's just there has to be more restriction on silhouette size than 10 points of xp per step imo and I don't think a pip for each silhouette size is unfair particularly.

Not unfair at all.


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#34 Maelora

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:41 AM

Yoda seems pretty serene to me when he's lifting the X-Wing.

 

And in any case, there's nothing in the movies that really suggests he's insanely powerful.  His role there is to be wise, to be a mentor and point out that appearances are deceptive.  I know they made him into a Total Badass Raging Engine of Destruction in the EU and prequels, but he doesn't do anything on Dagobah to suggest he has 9 or 10 Force Dice.


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#35 Maelora

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:44 AM

 

I think it's worth mentioning I am only pointing out the whole silhouette 4 scenario.  Under my method a FR 4 character would be able to flick something like speeder bikes about willy nilly, which I'm ok with.  It's just there has to be more restriction on silhouette size than 10 points of xp per step imo and I don't think a pip for each silhouette size is unfair particularly.

Not unfair at all.

 

 

I must admit I might feel a tad short-changed if I spent 300+ points on something that gets nerfed so hard.  Needing 6 pips is impossible with 2 Force Dice, and has less than 5% chance with 3. 

 

You could fill one of the trees like Marauder or Sharpshooter for that, grab a vibro-axe or heavy blaster rifle and be overpowered that way for the same cost.    

 

But of course, whatever suits your table, assuming the players are happy with it.  I made the Heavy Blaster Rifle to be Restricted, just for that reason. 


Edited by Maelora, 20 July 2014 - 11:47 AM.

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#36 Josep Maria

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:01 PM

The biggest action done with Move that I remember are:

 

- Lift an X-Wing (12.5 meters) Episode V

- Move heavy confederation battle tanks (between 9.19m and 12.53) Clone Wars

- Lift and launch various senate seats (about 3 meters) Episode III

 

There are also a few samples of moving other objects, at same time, but this one are the bigger ones.

 

In most cases, the users doesn't seem that have so many difficulties to do it. So, why we have to add more scales? Maybe that's the true limit of the Force. Off course, this doesn't mean that this samples are the "max" power the Force have, but it would be a good universe canon reference.


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#37 2P51

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:22 PM

 

 

I think it's worth mentioning I am only pointing out the whole silhouette 4 scenario.  Under my method a FR 4 character would be able to flick something like speeder bikes about willy nilly, which I'm ok with.  It's just there has to be more restriction on silhouette size than 10 points of xp per step imo and I don't think a pip for each silhouette size is unfair particularly.

Not unfair at all.

 

 

I must admit I might feel a tad short-changed if I spent 300+ points on something that gets nerfed so hard.  Needing 6 pips is impossible with 2 Force Dice, and has less than 5% chance with 3. 

 

You could fill one of the trees like Marauder or Sharpshooter for that, grab a vibro-axe or heavy blaster rifle and be overpowered that way for the same cost.    

 

But of course, whatever suits your table, assuming the players are happy with it.  I made the Heavy Blaster Rifle to be Restricted, just for that reason. 

 

Yes but bounty hunters are not going to be able to spend 300 experience points and with a wave of their hand destroy a silhouette 4 vehicle.  A 5% chance of being able to toss an AT-AT for some lowby Exile/Emergent sounds about right to me.  Luke was being trained by the preeminent Jedi Master and he certainly couldn't do it.


Edited by 2P51, 20 July 2014 - 12:41 PM.

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#38 Maelora

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:50 PM

I just don't feel that someone who's spent 330 XP on the spec, then 110 + 110 + 150 = 700 XP to max all the trees, would necessarily count as 'lowly'.

 

Yes, they would be raw and untrained compared to a Jedi in terms of power dice, but high XP + 2 Force Dice seems to reflect the potentially-potent-but-self-taught force-user that the Exile class represents.  (Not to mention that there are serious role-playing considerations for someone who manifests Force powers flagrantly in public).

 

If you assume that Lando (by his JoY stats) and the lead characters in the movies had maxed 3-4 specs by the time the credits roll in 'Return'... Luke on Dagobah was probably only about 500 XP at that point, most of which he'd put into his Career.

 

As I've said, it's whatever suits your table, but it seems harsh that it can't be attained using the EoE rules.

 

But I can see why anyone (except Erik B) would feel leery of going into overpowered FU territory.


Edited by Maelora, 20 July 2014 - 12:53 PM.

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#39 Ghostofman

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:51 PM

 

 

 

I think it's worth mentioning I am only pointing out the whole silhouette 4 scenario.  Under my method a FR 4 character would be able to flick something like speeder bikes about willy nilly, which I'm ok with.  It's just there has to be more restriction on silhouette size than 10 points of xp per step imo and I don't think a pip for each silhouette size is unfair particularly.

Not unfair at all.

 

 

I must admit I might feel a tad short-changed if I spent 300+ points on something that gets nerfed so hard.  Needing 6 pips is impossible with 2 Force Dice, and has less than 5% chance with 3. 

 

You could fill one of the trees like Marauder or Sharpshooter for that, grab a vibro-axe or heavy blaster rifle and be overpowered that way for the same cost.    

 

But of course, whatever suits your table, assuming the players are happy with it.  I made the Heavy Blaster Rifle to be Restricted, just for that reason. 

 

Yes but bounty hunters are not going to be able to spend 300 experience points and with a wave of their hand destroy a silhouette 4 vehicle.  A 5% chance of being able to toss an AT-AT for some lowby Exile/Emergent sounds about right to me.  Luke was being trained by the preeminent Jedi Master and he certainly couldn't do it.

And at 300xp a hired gun can wipe an entire combat in a single move, or absorb a hit that would 1-shot a small vehicle....

 

Just saying as the new class books appear so are more epic powers.


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#40 2P51

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:56 PM

He can't wipe out a silhouette 4 vehicle.


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