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Change alignment after rolling a die


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#1 DomaGB

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:32 PM

A friend asked me, he was playing Talisman, and knew I could look this up, but I didn't find an exact answer, can an alignment be changed after rolling a die?
 
Druid or Druid staff with the Adventure card Tax (Taxation?)
 
I understand that the alignment can be changed after getting a card and seeing it, but what about after rolling a die?
 
On the following link, it is discussed that the alignment can be changed before moving but is hinted at after the roll of the die, but before landing on the graveyard. So this almost met my answer but not quite.

http://www.talisman-...ide-pt-3-druid/


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#2 The_Warlock

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 02:47 AM

Changing alignment at will is all but an awesome ability. No need to restrain it more than it already is. I think that the limit "once per turn" could have been lifted, because there's no way for the ability to react to forced alignment changes. In any case your character is forced to change and he may have to ditch Objects, so even if he could change his alignment voluntarily a second time it won't matter at all.

 

Druid/Druid staff can change alignment once per turn according to the Rulebook. This can be done in response to an effect, which can be the Evil Darkness or the Madcap roll (which is even worse than Taxation). It falls under the broad category of "at any time" effects, which have no restrictions in their use so far.


Edited by The_Warlock, 19 July 2014 - 02:48 AM.


#3 Nioreh

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 07:15 AM

So a character could be evil at the start of his turn,encounter an roll a 6 on the Madcap, change his alignment to good using the Druid staff and take an extra turn?



#4 talismanamsilat

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:58 AM

So a character could be evil at the start of his turn,encounter an roll a 6 on the Madcap, change his alignment to good using the Druid staff and take an extra turn?

 

No. If an evil character rolls a 5-6 when he encounters the Madcap, he is turned to good; the effect of the die roll is immediate. You cannot use the Druid Staff after you have rolled the die!

 

You don't see a character rolling the die for battle and then pay the Mercenary...


Edited by talismanamsilat, 19 July 2014 - 11:59 AM.


#5 DomaGB

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:59 AM

Oh boy! Its contested now! ;) :huh: :unsure: :blink:


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#6 Nioreh

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 06:25 AM

 

So a character could be evil at the start of his turn,encounter an roll a 6 on the Madcap, change his alignment to good using the Druid staff and take an extra turn?

 

No. If an evil character rolls a 5-6 when he encounters the Madcap, he is turned to good; the effect of the die roll is immediate. You cannot use the Druid Staff after you have rolled the die!

 

You don't see a character rolling the die for battle and then pay the Mercenary...

 

 

This is exactly what I was getting to (and how we rule it) but I wanted to ask if that was what The_Warlock meant to allow  first.



#7 The_Warlock

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 03:39 PM

Mmh, I agree I had it wrong on the Madcap because the actual wording is "change to that alignment", so you cannot alter your alignment accordingly first. Sorry to have opened the wrong box; well, everybody can be wrong in both real life and forum posting.

 

But for the same reason why you cannot react to Madcap, who changes you to a certain alignment, I think it's possible to change to a certain alignment after rolling the die for Taxation. You cannot override effects that change your alignment (you must be of that alignment for enough time to resolve alignment-related effects), but you can adapt your alignment before an alignment-related effect is resolved, like it happens when the Druid draws Evil Darkness.


Edited by The_Warlock, 20 July 2014 - 11:37 PM.

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#8 Nioreh

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 05:05 PM

We apply the same logic/the parable to how strength&craft must be changed before your attack
roll (p.10 base game rules) on "at any time" effects.
I.e. "at any time" effects are not allowed in between rolling and resolving, they must be used before rolling.

 

The Dryad stranger and the Brainwave spell produces another good example that I would say is not allowed. Brainwave would have to be cast before rolling.

 

I too would however like to rule (based on.. gut feeling?) that alignment changes are allowed after rolling for Taxation.
How do I whitewash this? Well.. I don't really know but lets pretend that since it refers to All good/neutral/evil players there is a small time frame where you check what players are of what alignment and in there it would be allowed to change.  :ph34r:

 

Dryad
A Dryad attempts to lure you through a magic portal. Roll 2 dice. If the total is equal to or less than your Craft, discard the Dryad and gain 1 Craft. If it is higher, you are teleported to the Forest.
Brainwave
Cast on yourself at any time. Your Craft value is doubled until the end of the turn.


Edited by Nioreh, 21 July 2014 - 10:29 AM.


#9 Alfax

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:34 AM

What about after rolling the die for movement. If you roll and can land on the Graveyard can you change to evil before you move there? We've always played that you could change after rolling for movement but before moving as it seemed the ability to change alignment was geared toward spaces and encounters based on alignment

Not a roll like the Madcap where you would have to choose your alignment before the roll but cards where you are good but will get rewarded if you were evil. You could change between drawing the card and encountering the card.


Edited by Alfax, 21 July 2014 - 11:36 AM.


#10 Nioreh

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:31 PM

I'd say it's allowed both after rolling for movement and after moving (before encountering).

Casting a spell to change the alignment oh someone who has landed on the desert but not yet encountered it to make them drop the Holy grail etc is one of my favorites (even though it was a friend who came up with if).

Edited by Nioreh, 21 July 2014 - 01:32 PM.


#11 talismanamsilat

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:54 PM

I'd say it's allowed both after rolling for movement and after moving (before encountering).

Casting a spell to change the alignment oh someone who has landed on the desert but not yet encountered it to make them drop the Holy grail etc is one of my favorites (even though it was a friend who came up with if).

 

And if you do this, the player has to drop the Holy Grail immediately and they do not draw a card for the Desert as the Holy Grail is there (as per the ditch rule in the rulebook)!!!


Edited by talismanamsilat, 21 July 2014 - 01:57 PM.


#12 Uvatha

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:34 PM

There is no "small time frame" to check what players alignment are, even though in a game there might be because Taxation effects all players of a alignment.

 

Changing alignment is not a counter effect its just a normal effect. Nothing (unless saying so eg counter spell) can interupt a spells or cards effect. You can change alignment before the encounter but not just after the die roll before the effect of the die roll. You can with some effects change the die roll or add to it..

 

So if you dont have the gold its jail for you if you roll the same alignment as you in Taxations effect: if your the druid you just end up being a different alignment in jail... hehe..



#13 The_Warlock

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:08 AM

Changing alignment is not a counter effect its just a normal effect. Nothing (unless saying so eg counter spell) can interupt a spells or cards effect. You can change alignment before the encounter but not just after the die roll before the effect of the die roll. You can with some effects change the die roll or add to it..

 

This is a ruled applied by commonsense or analogy, not a given rule. The only roll where it's explicitly stated that modifiers must be applied before the roll is the attack roll. The idea that things happen as soon as a die is rolled might be a favourite tie-breaker for many Talisman players, but it's not a given rule. I still think that a character can change alignment to avoid Taxation after the die is rolled and my wrong assumption on the Madcap was quite useful to understand the differences between the 2 effects. Alignment changing is not a powerful ability, I don't understand why many people think it's worth limiting it more than it already is.

 

So if you dont have the gold its jail for you if you roll the same alignment as you in Taxations effect: if your the druid you just end up being a different alignment in jail... hehe..

 

If this were true, you wouldn't be able to turn Objects into gold with the Alchemist to pay for Taxation, which is another unacceptable limitation to an ability. Limitations to at any time/as required effects should be applied when they are really needed (e.g. the Alchemist used in the Claim Reward phase of combat), not whenever they interact with another card's effect. This is a complex topic that has not yet received official rules, so we can't tell anything but our opinions here.


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#14 talismanamsilat

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:20 AM

Well Warlock, it may not be an official rule but DE handles the game like this!
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#15 The_Warlock

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:37 AM

Well Warlock, it may not be an official rule but DE handles the game like this!

 

Interesting to know. It's actually a good way to cut down card interactions and exclude a series of potential bugs and program crashes from the very start. It doesn't surprise me that they went that way. Do you like not being able to turn your Objects into gold when you need it, talismanamsilat?

 

However, if anything that we believe or hope for this game shall now be compared with its Digital Edition, then FFG could just save time working on FAQs and rulebooks and replace them with a leaflet that says "if you want to know how to play Talisman, buy the Digital Edition".



#16 talismanamsilat

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 02:53 AM

Yes I like turning Objects into gold when it's my turn. I also like doing it during another players turn, BUT not after my attack roll...


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#17 Uvatha

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:44 AM

I don't think "at any time/as required" effects should allow a player to "cut in" on a effect, if you go by the way Talisman is played effects start and then end there is nothing no chance to act between, if players are allowed to do this it opens a whole prob for ability abuse which can escalate. The Alchemist buying, turn to gold, buy, turn to gold, buy, turn to gold etc etc in the city for one. If it applies to one it applies to all I do not see any reason why it would be different.

 

Also I think the rule is very much implied even though its not written in "black and white" (not to mention that saying the opposite is not a written rule ethier).

 

Anyway you can use the Alchemist just before the event Taxation is encountered so its not a issue of not allowing a player to get the gold "if" he or she wants to, its the issue that a player should not get the gold after they know they need it..

 

I strongly disagree with the Alchemist being used in the Claim Reward phase of combat to turn a object to gold before a player can take it as a reward (I gather thats what you meant Warlock) If you allow that again alot of other issues arise again. But again its a "no time to use a effect" you can Achemise before but not inbetween.

 

Of course if you really feel strongly about it just make a house rule :).

 



#18 Artaterxes

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:44 AM

On one hand, the digital edition gets even basic rules wrong on occasion.
On the other, it's forced to deal with every single nuance and interaction and provide an answer. To that end it updates itself far more than the board game FAQ.

In my opinion, the digital edition is not quite at the point where it can be used as an answer to everything. If I have a question, the first thing I do is seek an answer from the perspective of the physical game. If there is no conclusion, I play how the DE does just for the sake of having an answer.
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