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Does anybody else miss power cards?


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#21 chrsjxn

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:52 AM

I think that the game is progressing nicely. I would hate to see more power creep. It ruins games. New cards should be "interesting" and "different", rather than "OMGZORZ!!!! THAT HERO HAS 5 ATTACK STRENGTH!!!!"

 

Heh. That's exactly what I said when I saw Eomer. And unlike Beorn, he's not 12 threat, and you can play cards on him.

 

I think they've been doing well with bringing in good, high power cards recently. Sam and the hobbit synergy are great. Elf-stone continues to be amazing in any deck with lore. Grima and the doomed cards are very cool for solo play. Caldara is brutal.

 

Plus Outlands. Not a combo player's dream, but for sheer numerical superiority, they're your best bet.



#22 Rapier

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 11:55 AM

Of course there are lots of justified arguments against power cards. Limiting design choice, breaking the game etc. But could there be some arguments for them? Adding more options to the small number of power cards currently available? The anticipation of new packs and the excitement of increasing your power against the ever more devious encounter deck? I personally feel that LOTR has erred on the side of caution for too long. What do people think?

 

There's several good arguments for power cards depending on how you define them; the best argument from a companies point of view is that controlled power creep is the best way to sell your product.

If you have a high power creep (say the Gondor cards were just better than the dwarf cards) then people might be put off, they'll realize that the massive power creep is purely marketing. If you don't have any though, people may well say, hey I read the spoilers for that card pack, it doesn't come with anything I want at all, so I won't buy it.

Adding new options is an interesting one: it could be argued that a new power card is created any time a brand new (useful) mechanic is added to the game. As an example the first time we had the ability to ignore a shadow card (Burning Brand) it was amazing, people were all talking about it and how big a game changer it was.

Subsequent ignore shadow cards could be made that were better and would create the same buzz, however adding a weaker burning brand will just make people go "eh, burning brand is better". 

So if you're looking for truly powerful new auto includes, you're looking for brand new mechanics that cut into the way the game currently works. A new card type, a new way to play an old card type. Something like doom on player cards - which allows them to not have power creep (you could print a new burning brand that was exactly the same with a different resource cost and a doom key word for instance). It would however open up all new play and combos.

The lure of having your character level up and fight bigger monsters deck grow in power is a major way to sell subsequent expansions. People want to feel they're getting better at the game and a good way for people to do that is to get more powerful options.

On the other hand I personally think that having power cards is a major problem (as I wrote at length about the value of  errata or ban on Unexpected Courage :P).

They're much better off designing the cards so that people go " hey that's awesome for X" rather than "hey that's awesome." So I think if the game continues to live it will be more and more themed around traits and types rather than just having cards that are awesome for the base mechanics.

If I could go back in time to suggest how they should develop this game, I would have suggested that the core set should choose one theme to really support instead of having to make a product that could stand alone so had to have very strong synergies like sneak attack gandalf. 

Most card games make these mistakes though, A lot of the most powerful magic cards were in the early sets; the first set of dominion had the most broken cards which then impacted the design of all future cards in a detrimental way (Chapel). I think it may just be impossible not to have an effect like this (first edition board games often have similar problems, as do new computer games).

I think you should expect to get less cards like UC and Steward of Gondor in future, unless a mistake is made.



#23 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:19 PM

Look who's back.


That's cursed table-talk, and I'll stick you, if you don't shut it down, see?'


#24 Khamul The Easterling

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:44 PM

Look who's back.

We all know Rapier is you.  Remember we figured it out?


Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamul the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's Lieutenant, with one other as his messenger."  - Unfinished Tales


#25 booored

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:59 PM

Look who's back.

We all know Rapier is you.  Remember we figured it out?


link please
"People should be less concerned about whether they are being insulted and more concerned if it is the truth"

#26 Rapier

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:02 PM

Look who's back.

 

I'm going to interpret this as a positive expression in your minimalist style :)

Thanks for noticing I was away for a while and that I came back. These little things are nice.



#27 Mndela

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:06 PM

 

Look who's back.

We all know Rapier is you.  Remember we figured it out?

 

 

Are the same guy, sure. But he is not aware of it. ^^ HIs identity changes for moments...

 

Joke :lol:


Edited by Mndela, 18 July 2014 - 01:08 PM.

A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#28 Rapier

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:14 PM

 

 

Look who's back.

We all know Rapier is you.  Remember we figured it out?

 

 

Are the same guy, sure. But he is not aware of it. ^^ HIs identity changes for moments...

 

Joke :lol:

 

 

Didn't you used to have an elf for an avatar? I like that bird.



#29 Mndela

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:24 PM

No, my last avatar was a character blowing a horn


A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round


#30 booored

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:48 PM

changing avatars is painful... especially if you have been around as long as you have.
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#31 Khamul The Easterling

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 02:01 PM

 

 

Look who's back.

We all know Rapier is you.  Remember we figured it out?

 


link please

 

Pericles had it all figured out - http://community.fan...son-mind-blown/


Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamul the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's Lieutenant, with one other as his messenger."  - Unfinished Tales


#32 booored

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 04:41 PM

wow, that thread is kinda touching in a strange way :P
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#33 joezim007

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 02:37 PM

TLDR: The Fall of Gil-Galad can be pretty awesome. For most things, power is relative to the power of the encounter deck. Power cards are being replaced by combinations, which is more interesting, healthy for the game, and prevents encounter decks from having to get even more powerful more quickly.
 

The biggest shame isn't the lack of power cards, it's the existence of useless cards. It's almost like they weren't playtested.
 
For instance, the The Fall of Gil-Galad card is absolute rubbish. No good player is putting that in their deck and to add insult to injury they put 3 in the pack and you can only use one in a deck. Ridiculous.

 
The Fall of Gil-Galad isn't a bad card. At all. People over-think this too much. I just played a 2-player game: Tactics/Leadership and Spirit/Lore. I had a few different songs in the S/L deck so I also added Rivendell Minstrel and The Fall of Gil-Galad. During the game, Rivendell Minstrel was quite helpful in retrieving this particular attachment. I had a Song of Earendil attached to a hero, but I wasn't able to use it because both decks had threat climbing pretty high.
 
The T/L deck had an Eagles of the Misty Mountains out and had just gotten Landroval out via Elf-Stone (yay! No paying 5 resources just to for his ability!). I also happen to have Eomer and Prince Imrahil who take quite a fancy to characters leaving play.
 
The S/L deck had just reset its threat (via Lore Aragorn) back down 28 (from mid 40's) in the previous refresh phase. Then, during combat, I let Aragorn - who was the bearer of The Fall of Gil-Galad - die to an undefended attack. Also, one of my heroes was holding a Horn of Gondor. So I lowered my threat by 12 more: down to 16, gained a resource via Horn of Gondor, boosted Eomer, readied Prince Imrahil, and gained a victory point, then had Landroval leave play, bring Aragorn back, boosting my Eagles of the Misty Mountains, gaining me another resource, and giving me my Aragorn back in a ready state. Also, I am now able to start using Song of Earendil for every threat gain (plus a Galadhrim's Greeting) to bring the T/L deck back below 40, where it safely stayed for the rest of the game.
 
I definitely don't see this combination happening every game, but if I can get even just the most important parts (The Fall of Gil-Galad and Landroval) set up once every couple games, this card can be pretty powerful. In this instance, I could have done the exact same thing, except without gaining the victory point or lowering my threat by 12 if The Fall of Gil-Galad wasn't included in the mix, which is still a very powerful combination of effects. But I DID have The Fall of Gil-Galad, which lowered my threat by 12 for a single resource.
 
Soo... in what way is The Fall of Gil-Galad a bad card? If it weren't for its restrictive trigger, I'd call it a power card.
 
---
 
Also, since we're talking about power cards in this thread, I'll mention that I'm really enjoying the way cards are shaping up. If a single card being added to your deck would ALWAYS make your deck better (as long as you have matching spheres), then that isn't a power card; That's a broken card. If the card's costs/restrictions don't measure up to what you gain from it, then it is overpowered.
 
Before I go much further I want to mention that it's interesting to note that when it comes to stats - particularly attack and defense - the power of the encounter cards you are playing against is the most important factor in what is considered to be "powerful" or "weak". With the way the card pool has grown, enemies have gotten stronger, so having 2 defense is practically pointless now whereas it was actually doable to use a guy with 2 defense in the early days for a good chunk of defending. The old "power cards" are still very powerful because their power isn't relative to the power of the encounter deck. There are some power cards that are graded relative to the power of the deck, but they actually get stronger when the encounter deck gets strong (specifically cancellation and prevention [A Test of Will, A Burning Brand, Hasty Stroke, Feint, Forest Snare]).
 
Today, though, we can't just release a hero with 5 base attack and only 8 starting threat (even though it is feasible with the right stat distribution) because then we'd end up with a hero similar to Glorfindel. The low threat combined with at least one great stat makes him too good to leave out of decks, which railroads deckbuilding (though people who can play more often have more flexibility and time to experiment with alternatives, but people who can only play once in a while pretty much are required to take the best cards because they won't have time to "waste" on a botched experiment). Eomer and Beorn have 5 attack, so what's the big deal? Well, Beorn can't have attachments, so he's stuck at 5. Eomer needs a trigger in order to get up to 5. Also, they both have starting threat values that are good indicators of their power. Going back to the point of Beorn not being able to have attachments: this is how "power cards" are handled now. The pool is large enough that you have several options to turn a "good" card into a "power" card.

 

For example: going back to the Tactics/Leadership deck from above. I had Eomer in the deck. He is a great card, but even 5 attack (conditional) can't kill every enemy. Well, we have countless ways to build up his attack to ridiculous numbers. In the game I was playing in the example above, Eomer had Rohan Warhorse, Firefoot, Support of the Eagles, Dunedain Cache, Steward of Gondor, and Gondorian Fire on him.

 

So I got his attack to:

3 base

+2 with an ally leaving play

+3 (or more!) from Support of the Eagles

+2 from Firefoot

-----------

10+ attack, where overflow damage (which there usually is) goes onto another enemy, and a readying so that I could do it again. Also, Dundain Cache allowed me to do it against enemies engaged with the other deck. If we each had 1 enemy, I could attack the enemy engaged with the other deck and the excess could damage the enemy engaged with me. I didn't even use Steward of Gondor + Gondorian Fire because I already had overkill.

 

My point is that we don't need standalone power cards anymore. We have the means to build cards that are more powerful than we could ever imagine receiving in packs. Heck, I could have gone further by including Dunedain Marks.

 

So stop worrying about the fact that we don't have any cards that just straight up say "Remove an encounter card in the staging area from play" (just an example... thankfully no one has asked for that specifically yet). We don't need those cards. We need to keep getting cards similar to what we've been getting: cards that work well together to create amazingly powerful combinations. It's a lot more fun and satisfying and it rewards good deck building.


Edited by joezim007, 19 July 2014 - 03:36 PM.

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#34 Catastrophic09

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 04:01 PM

Well put ^^ "power cards" being a card that can fit in almost any deck and is usable in any situation seems nice so Unexpected Courage for example is super easy to use and very versatile making it quite powerful. These kind of cards I would also argue are unhealthy and bad for the game. I really like cards that are somewhat restricted with use or who they can attach to because they are still very useful and powerful in the right setting but you have to build a proper deck around them and their natural limitations are healthy for the game.  

 

I still think we will get very powerful cards in the future like Galadriel and Treebeard, these also have their limitations but are obviously super powerful and I'm stoked to get them! And as the cardpool grows (which is really slow and will take much time) I think we will will start forgetting or replacing our staple cards with new cards that are powerful in their own type of decks.






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