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Strain and "Combat"


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#41 HappyDaze

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:29 AM

You can, I think he is sick of my emails..... :blink:

So we're not so different after all! :D


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#42 2P51

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:44 AM

Well, I'm sure he'd like to hear from other peeps also......no need to hog all the questions....


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#43 Revanchist7

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:53 AM

i still have a problem imagining any reasonable scenario where anyone would be "defeated" by nasty words only.
 
could anyone give examples? star wars relevance for bonus points.

 
I imagine that a Force Sensitive Exile PC or "Jedi Exile" NPC using Scathing Tirade could be an excellent in-system representation of Dun Möch.
 
another good example (and bonus points! :lol: ). and another one that convinces me that once/session is the way to go. most (all i guess?) lightsaber duels in the movies include dialogue, because the fights are less about hacking the others bits off and more about the relationship between the fighters involved.
 
coercion, deception, even charm can all be used during such a duel. as could a scything tirade. such an element works well if used once. maybe twice. they can help vreate powerful, memorable scenes. they lose their power if used constantly.
 
it's also much more interesting between 2 closely matched individuals, as a taunt, where a single slip might cause one to lose the fight. screaming constant abuse at a group of ruffians during a firefight... meh. :)
Its only boring if you allow it to be. I think it works well (and realistically) as something done multiple times to wear down someone's resolve

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#44 Jamwes

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:49 AM

You can, I think he is sick of my emails..... :blink:

 

Will do and I'll post the results in the thread. As much as I disagree with you, I do hope your stance is right. Would've made life much easier for my Tirade character.

 

 

 

 

 

i still have a problem imagining any reasonable scenario where anyone would be "defeated" by nasty words only.
 
could anyone give examples? star wars relevance for bonus points.

 
I imagine that a Force Sensitive Exile PC or "Jedi Exile" NPC using Scathing Tirade could be an excellent in-system representation of Dun Möch.
 
another good example (and bonus points! :lol: ). and another one that convinces me that once/session is the way to go. most (all i guess?) lightsaber duels in the movies include dialogue, because the fights are less about hacking the others bits off and more about the relationship between the fighters involved.
 
coercion, deception, even charm can all be used during such a duel. as could a scything tirade. such an element works well if used once. maybe twice. they can help vreate powerful, memorable scenes. they lose their power if used constantly.
 
it's also much more interesting between 2 closely matched individuals, as a taunt, where a single slip might cause one to lose the fight. screaming constant abuse at a group of ruffians during a firefight... meh. :)
Its only boring if you allow it to be. I think it works well (and realistically) as something done multiple times to wear down someone's resolve

 

 

It would be cool to use while fighting (Tirade would be like the talking bits while fighting that's often displayed in fiction, especially comics) although I question its usefulness. As written, you're already spending a strain to use it as a maneuver. Is it really worth using for just one or two strain and perhaps a setback die on your opponet in a one-on-one well matched duel? Or how about one where you're out matched and are trying to use your taunting as a way to throw off the better fighter? In my experiences, I'd have to think twice. The strain cost on me would add up, especially if I needed to do two maneuvers in a turn to tirade and do something else, like move into engaged.



#45 derroehre

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:06 PM

One of my PC's was blind (literally), handcuffed and surrounded by enemies who are holding the spaceport against the rest of the players and used scathing tirade for a few rounds.

He kept screaming profanities about their mothers and their intense relationships with banthas, about their certain doom once the rest of his "army" arrives, their impending emasculation and evisceration etc. etc.

He rolled pretty well, (and accordingly had quite an effect on them) so the goons were stressed, unconcentrated, (strain, setbacks) but at the same time increased their barricades and prepared to evacuate earlier, which was actually hindering the pc's a little bit in their plan to enter the spaceport.


Edited by derroehre, 16 July 2014 - 12:09 PM.

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#46 Jamwes

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:45 AM

 

 

Semantics.  The point being there are rules for what can be done with a Coercion check and there is nothing in Scathing Tirade that says you ignore the aspects of a Coercion check when using Scathing Tirade, therefore there is nothing RAW that says what I propose can't be done.

Do you allow other double dips as well? For example, can a character with Field Commander and Inspiring Rhetoric use both together since they both use Leadership? Can a character roll Discipline to resist Fear and also activate Hard headed with the same roll? I tend to think that any specialized use of a skill - such as from the mentioned talents - overwrites the basic use of the skill as described in the skills section.

 

No because they are separate effects.  The example with Scathing Tirade is the same as using Frenzied Attack in conjunction with Stunning Blow on a melee attack.  The talents are modifying the skill check for the same objective, Field Commander and Inspiring Rhetoric are not accomplishing the same objective.  Scathing Tirade is simply adding utility to a Coercion check in exact same way Stunning Blow adds a utility to a melee check.

 

Bad Motivator isn't looking to repair a piece of equipment.  That's not its intent nor its effect.  Scathing Tirade is being used to inflict Strain, that is the intent and use of Coercion.

 

 

During the process of writing my question I went back and read through the Coercion rules in AoR. At this time, I'm more swayed towards 2P51's interpretation.

 

Scathing Tirade calls for a Coercion check. In the Coercion skill entry, there is a paragraph which reads: "Extra * on a Coercion check may be used to inflict strain upon the target at a rate of one strain per **." The next paragraph goes on to tell what to do with advantages and triumphs on a Coercion check. Because the skill description and the talent both use the broad termonalogy of a "Coercion check", I'm starting to think that the rules from the skill description could be used when the talent is used. Two success could be used for additional strain, two advantages for additional targets, and triumphs for breaking their will.

 

I sent in the following question, so we'll see what they say.

 

Hello,

 

A question about the Scathing Tirade talent came up on the forums and we’d like some clarification.
http://community.fan...ain-and-combat/

 

Scathing Tirade allows the user to inflict strain damage to enemies. The user can affect a number of enemies equal to the number of success and can deal additional damage per advantage. This is with a “Scathing Tirade” action, which uses a “Coercion check”.  The Coercion skill rules also have the ability to inflict strain on targets for successes, add targets for advantages, and even break the will of a target with a triumph.

 

The question is: how does this interact with the base Coercion rules found in the skill description? Do they interact with one of the following interpretations?

 

1. When using a talent which gives an action, such as Scathing Tirade, only the text in the talent can be used. So, when Scathing Tirade is used, the only way to add targets is with success and the only way to deal more damage is with advantages, as depicted in the talent. All text in the skill description is disregarded when using a talent.

 

2. When a talent is used which calls for a skill check, the rules for the check found in the skill can also be applied. So, when Scathing Tirade is used, targets can be added with success per the talent and advantages per the skill, extra damage can be inflicted with advantages per the talent and successes per the skill, and the target’s will can be broken with a triumph.

 

3. There is some other interaction between skills and talents that wasn’t described above.

 

Thank you for a help on this issue.


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#47 Aluminium Falcon

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 02:13 PM

Well-summarized and asked, Jamwes.  Thank you.  I look forward to learning the answer that you recieve.


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#48 Simon Fix

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 03:44 PM

Here's the other issue for me...

 

Is activating a skill check an action?  Yes.  (Per CRB p. 204) Therefore coercion is an action.

 

Is activating Scathing Tirade an action?  Yes.  (Per CRB p. 142)

 

Can you perform more than one action in a turn?  No.

 

You can either perform a coercion check as a coercion check or or you can perform it as a Scathing Tirade check.  (I suppose otherwise it would mean we'd have to allow the Piloting check for Full Throttle to apply to Gain the Advantage in the same turn.)

 

I'm willing to hear what the game devs have to say on the subject, but I doubt it'll change out our table.


Edited by Simon Fix, 17 July 2014 - 03:50 PM.

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#49 Shamrock

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:07 AM

I've never had anyone die from strain loss, even minions, unless it led to some other situation that killed them.  Like someone was scaling a cliff in a desert, and the strain from the heat finally got to them.  They fell to their death.   In the case with the storm troopers, given by the OP, I would have just had the stormtroopers put down their weapons and surrender, or say "f this" and leave.


Be well,

 

Sham


#50 Jamwes

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 11:49 AM

I had originally asked this question about a month back, then GenCon happened, then I forgot about it. I asked again today and I bet I caught Sam in a good mood on his lunch break, because he answered super quick. The answer was what I expected, but not what I hoped. I said I'd post it, so here it is.

 

Rule Question:
Hello,

I play a Politico who uses the Scathing Tirade talent in combat. My GM and I have a question as to how Scathing Tirade interacts with the Coercion skill rules.

Scathing Tirade allows the user to inflict strain damage to enemies. The user can affect a number of enemies equal to the number of success and can deal additional damage per advantage. This is with a "Scathing Tirade" action, which uses a "Coercion check". The Coercion skill rules also have the ability to inflict strain on targets for successes, add targets for advantages, and even break the will of a target with a triumph.

The question is: how does Scathing Tirade interact with the base Coercion rules found in the skill description? Do they interact with one of the following interpretations?

1. When using a talent which gives an action, such as Scathing Tirade, only the text in the talent can be used. When Scathing Tirade is used, the only way to add targets is with success and the only way to deal more damage is with advantages, as depicted in the talent. All text in the skill description is disregarded when using a talent.

2. When a talent is used which calls for a skill check, the rules for the check found in the skill can also be applied. When Scathing Tirade is used, targets can be added with success per the talent and advantages per the skill, extra damage can be inflicted with advantages per the talent and successes per the skill, and the targets will can be broken with a triumph.

3. There is some other interaction between skills and talents that wasn't described above.

Thank you for a help on this issue.

 

Answer from Sam:

Scathing Tirade is a separate and discrete action that follows the rules listed in it, and nothing else. The rules offered in the skills chapter are simply guidelines for using those skills if no other rules apply. They do not stack.
 
Hope this helps!
 
Sam Stewart
Senior RPG Producer
Fantasy Flight Games

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#51 Desslok

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 03:10 PM

 

I don't, but I do place some limitations on it, the most obvious one is, can they hear you?  Not likely in the middle of a gun fight.

Sure they can, it's Short range only. Just pile on some setback dice for background noise and roll the dice. :)

 

 

And watch as your politico laugh at your feeble black dice, with their Remove Black Die talents.

 

could anyone give examples? star wars relevance for bonus points.

 

Its not Star Wars, but will a Lucasarts Game do?1

 

 

Also, Scathing Tirade can goad someone to combat when they're not ready:

 


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#52 OggDude

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 03:49 PM

Words can, in fact, kill.  I think we can all agree that Dirty Harry has "Scathing Tirade" (from "Sudden Impact"):

 

 

I first saw this movie when I was playing Champions.  Back then, Dirty Harry made one heck of a Presence Attack on the guy :)

 


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#53 Varisangel

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 10:53 AM

I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned some of the iconic fights in Star Wars when mentioning Scathing Tirade. The most obvious one to me is the final scene on the Death Star in Episode 6. While Luke and Vader are dueling it out, the Emperor is doling out round after round of threats and comments belittling Luke's resolve to stay true to his friends. Every time there's a break in the fight, there's that evil chuckle hovering over the entire scene, intensifying the battle.

 

On another note, I don't think Scathing Tirade is meant to only be insulting the opponent's mother and referencing his love making with space fauna. Intimidation, showing your opponents how hopeless they are, how powerful and infamous your group is, how their lives will soon end; these are the ways I see Scathing Tirade being used. Shouting from behind cover just doesn't give the talent its dramatic flair (or believability).


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#54 Jamwes

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 01:23 PM

On another note, I don't think Scathing Tirade is meant to only be insulting the opponent's mother and referencing his love making with space fauna. Intimidation, showing your opponents how hopeless they are, how powerful and infamous your group is, how their lives will soon end; these are the ways I see Scathing Tirade being used. Shouting from behind cover just doesn't give the talent its dramatic flair (or believability).

 

That's why my politico stood in the middle of the battle shouting things like, "Do you know who I am?!?" and everyone's favorite, "This wookie is going to rip your arms off and beat you to death with them." Only a couple of times I annoyed the GM/enemies enough where the chose to shoot the screaming politician instead of the raging wookie.


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#55 Kaarl Mills

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 10:35 PM

could anyone give examples? star wars relevance for bonus points.

 

 

Id say thats a successful scathing tirade with multiple triumphs considering he's making people not even in the room with him take strain



#56 Varisangel

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 02:19 AM

It's a successful tirade, although not necessarily appropriate in game terms. Who scathing tirade's their own leaders? Maybe in an extreme example, but this is a little counter-intuitive to using Scathing Tirade in normal combat.

 

Almost every Darth in the movies has a scathing tirade action; Dooku, Anakin v. Obiwan, Vader v. Obiwan, Palpatine v. Windu/Yoda, Palpatine v. Anyone really. Anytime a villain talks in a Star Wars duel, assume a scathing tirade. In EotE terms, you're basically employing these elements against (usually) less dramatic situations.



#57 evileeyore

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 06:42 AM

Who scathing tirade's their own leaders?

Obviously Hitler.

#58 Jamwes

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 07:28 AM

 

Who scathing tirade's their own leaders?

Obviously Hitler.

 

Plenty of examples. How about Patton with his own troops? He tried yelling at battle fatigued soldiers. If you ask me, this was a Scathing Tirade (or at least a Coersion check) to try to get the soldier to "man up" and go back to fighting. Some people believe that a stick works better than honey.

 

To put this into game terms, perhaps the GM ruled that topping out the Strain Threshold to result in the target begrugingly doing what you demand of them. Perhaps not 100% approperate for Scathing Tirade, but completly legit for Coersion.

 

http://en.wikipedia....pping_incidents

From wiki:

On 10 August, Patton entered the receiving tent of the hospital, speaking to the injured there. Patton approached Bennett, who was huddled and shivering, and asked what the trouble was. "It's my nerves," Bennett responded. "I can't stand the shelling anymore."[13] Patton reportedly became enraged at him, slapping him across the face. He began yelling: "Your nerves, hell, you are just a goddamned coward. Shut up that goddamned crying. I won't have these brave men who have been shot at seeing this yellow bastard sitting here crying."[13] Patton then reportedly slapped Bennett again, knocking his helmet liner off, and ordered the receiving officer, Major Charles B. Etter,[24] not to admit him.[13] Patton then threatened Bennett, "You're going back to the front lines and you may get shot and killed, but you're going to fight. If you don't, I'll stand you up against a wall and have a firing squad kill you on purpose. In fact, I ought to shoot you myself, you goddamned whimpering coward."[25] Upon saying this, Patton pulled out his pistol threateningly, prompting the hospital's commander, Colonel Donald E. Currier, to physically separate the two. Patton left the tent, yelling to medical officers to send Bennett back to the front lines.[25]



#59 JRRP

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 12:08 PM

I agree with 2P51: RAW states that it's any time a check is made, and you make a check to use Scathing Tirade. It's the same as allowing a reroll from "Natural Marksman" when using a combat talent: it's a check, the PC gets to reroll.



#60 awayputurwpn

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 01:05 PM

I agree with 2P51: RAW states that it's any time a check is made, and you make a check to use Scathing Tirade. It's the same as allowing a reroll from "Natural Marksman" when using a combat talent: it's a check, the PC gets to reroll.


Note that a few posts earlier, it was clarified by Sam Stewart that the Scathing Tirade action and a standard "Coercion Check" are two separate actions. So this particular interpretation of the RAW is not supported.

Note also that it is the nature of the game that each individual Success and Advantage pip are used once. As in, you can't use the same 2 Advantage on a combat check to both cause a critical hit and activate the autofire quality on a blaster.
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