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What's the word on the Tie Advanced?


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#41 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 08:13 AM

Lets just say that I have an awfully good idea on what is coming because I have mutant powers of precognition.

 
... and you are observant and have plenty or applicable common sense.
;)


There's exactly one thing anywhere that mentions Black Sun, and it's in the flavor text of the Bandit Squadron Pilot; there's no such thing as valid extrapolation from a single data point.

Back on topic...

Yes, the Tie Advanced might cost a little more than it should. But, like Magnus said, it is not an auto-lose either. It is sturdy and, thanks to his reputation, tend to be very low in priority list of your opponent. I personally had good success with it, not just with Vader. Trouble is, I could have been served just as well with another craft. So, I never been let down by the ship, but I don't tend to include it either because it doesn't bring something unique like the other ships do.


I've been let down by it. The problem isn't that it's an auto-lose; it's that, as Magnus Grendel also acknowledged, every role it currently plays is done better by another ship (and most of those other ships are the TIE Bomber--which is its own problem, given the Bomber's own relative lack of popularity).

More fundamentally, the problem is that it's a fighter with really great defense in a game that doesn't really value defense. It's a good closer against some ships, but that's because when it's the last ship you have, your opponent finally has a good reason to shoot at it. In my opinion, what it needs is a sort of taunt mechanic--although preferably something on the subtle side, rather than the club-to-the-head of Biggs.

And regarding the point cost. It's funny that some players can go to the lenght of dropping their team value to 96-97 pts to be sure to get initiative and yet, including a ship that cost maybe 2-3 points too much is out of the question.


I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that for the most part, the game isn't as sensitive to errors* in point costs as most players believe. A 2-point discount on a Prototype Pilot is a big deal--its cost decreases by over 10%. But a 2-point discount on Tycho + Push the Limit + Stealth Device is less than half his cost, and it's frankly a lot less noticeable.

(I'm deliberately ignoring, for the moment, the difficulty of determining the true points value of a named pilot.)

So, to reiterate somewhat, I don't think the Advanced actually has a cost problem--I think it has an ignorability problem. That's why a Chardaan-Refit-style fix won't work for the Advanced, actually, and why I think whatever FFG comes up with for the Advanced is going to have to be a lot tricksier.
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#42 Joe Boss Red Seven

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 08:18 AM

Yeah but Vorppies if I hold my breath, stamp and jump, and if I believe hard enough... IT WILL HAPPEN!

<_<


"There Is No Such Thing As Luck." BLACK SIX RED SEVEN

STAR WARS is far more than three thirty year old films. FFG intends for X-Wing to thrive, thus it will be more also... PERIOD.

^_^ BLACK...  :D SUN... :lol: RISES!!!
ALLIANCE: [A-WING: 3][B-WING: 3][E-WING: 3][HWK-290: 2][X-WING: 6][Y-WING: 6][Z-95: 6][YT-1300: 1] EMPIRE: [TIE ADVANCED: 1][TIE BOMBER: 3][TIE DEFENDER: 3][TIE FIGHTER: 5][TIE INTERCEPTOR: 6][TIE PHANTOM: 3][FIRESPRAY-31: 1][SHUTTLE-LAMBDA: 1] SCUM: [FIRESPRAY-31: 1][HWK-290: 2][IG-2000: ][M3-A: ][STAR VIPER: ][Y-WING: ][Z-95: ]


#43 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 08:24 AM

Yeah but Vorppies if I hold my breath, stamp and jump, and if I believe hard enough... IT WILL HAPPEN!
<_<


I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm saying there's no evidence that it's going to happen. Unless, apparently, you're Crabbok or Explosive Ewok, but that's down to whether you believe the unknown informant of the anonymous friend of a semi-anonymous forum poster...

Edited by Vorpal Sword, 14 July 2014 - 08:24 AM.

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#44 Rithrin

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 08:54 AM

 

So, to reiterate somewhat, I don't think the Advanced actually has a cost problem--I think it has an ignorability problem. That's why a Chardaan-Refit-style fix won't work for the Advanced, actually, and why I think whatever FFG comes up with for the Advanced is going to have to be a lot tricksier.

 

 

Well said. My local gaming store has had it's fair share of talk about the ship being 1 to 3 points overcosted, and how easy the solution is to fix them. I always ask "Well if it was 19 points, would you run it?". The reponse is what you'd expect.

 

More pilot abilities is probably the most practical way of 'fixing' the TIE Advanced. Preferably, ones that actually touch on the ship's strength, unlike Maarek.


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#45 trustybroom

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:03 AM

So, to reiterate somewhat, I don't think the Advanced actually has a cost problem--I think it has an ignorability problem. That's why a Chardaan-Refit-style fix won't work for the Advanced, actually, and why I think whatever FFG comes up with for the Advanced is going to have to be a lot tricksier.


That's the exact thought I had the last time I ran an Advanced. That it wouldn't be a bad ship if people actually fired at the dang thing. It's high defense coupled with the ability to take some pressure off my other ships would be fantastic. I wonder if they are thinking that the Proton Rockets on an Advanced would make people more likely to shoot at them.


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#46 Audio Weasel

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:20 AM

So I have a question.  A number of people have mentioned the survivability and tankiness of the Advanced.  Has anyone run them in tournament since the change that winning by 12 points is a full win, instead of a modified?  I was just wondering if that rule helped make them a little more viable.


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Current Fleet:

Rebel: 4 A-Wings, 4 B-Wings, 2 HWK-290's, 3 YT-1300s, 4 X-Wings, 2 Y-Wing, 1 Tantive IV, 1 Rebel Transport, 4 E-Wing, 5 Z-95 

Imperial:  3 Lambda Shuttles,  2 Firespray-31's, 3 Tie Advanced, 4 Tie Bombers, 6 Tie Fighters, 2 Tie Interceptors,   2 Imperials Aces, 4 TIE Phantom, 4 TIE Defender

On Pre-order:2 Z-95, 2 Rebel Aces, 2 YT-2400, 2 Decimator


#47 Englishpete

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:25 AM

What is interesting is if you give them the Tie Fighter dial, they become pretty good pretty quick.


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To every man upon this Earth Death cometh soon or late. And how can a man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods?
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#48 Joe Boss Red Seven

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:25 AM

 

Yeah but Vorppies if I hold my breath, stamp and jump, and if I believe hard enough... IT WILL HAPPEN!
<_<


I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm saying there's no evidence that it's going to happen. Unless, apparently, you're Crabbok or Explosive Ewok, but that's down to whether you believe the unknown informant of the anonymous friend of a semi-anonymous forum poster...

 

 

Well... I think it is safe to say that it is going to be a fun third and forth quarter no matter what I think I know, or what anybody else thinks they know about what is coming to us.

:)


"There Is No Such Thing As Luck." BLACK SIX RED SEVEN

STAR WARS is far more than three thirty year old films. FFG intends for X-Wing to thrive, thus it will be more also... PERIOD.

^_^ BLACK...  :D SUN... :lol: RISES!!!
ALLIANCE: [A-WING: 3][B-WING: 3][E-WING: 3][HWK-290: 2][X-WING: 6][Y-WING: 6][Z-95: 6][YT-1300: 1] EMPIRE: [TIE ADVANCED: 1][TIE BOMBER: 3][TIE DEFENDER: 3][TIE FIGHTER: 5][TIE INTERCEPTOR: 6][TIE PHANTOM: 3][FIRESPRAY-31: 1][SHUTTLE-LAMBDA: 1] SCUM: [FIRESPRAY-31: 1][HWK-290: 2][IG-2000: ][M3-A: ][STAR VIPER: ][Y-WING: ][Z-95: ]


#49 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:29 AM

So I have a question.  A number of people have mentioned the survivability and tankiness of the Advanced.  Has anyone run them in tournament since the change that winning by 12 points is a full win, instead of a modified?  I was just wondering if that rule helped make them a little more viable.


No, but it's hard to imagine a Tempest Squadron Pilot would be more of an asset in that sense than a Scimitar Squadron Pilot (very different dials, but comparable action bars, offensive contribution, and defensive efficiency)--and I have played against naked Scimitars. So even if you're just planning on tanking your way to a win, I'm not sure the Advanced holds up.

#50 Audio Weasel

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:33 AM

 

So I have a question.  A number of people have mentioned the survivability and tankiness of the Advanced.  Has anyone run them in tournament since the change that winning by 12 points is a full win, instead of a modified?  I was just wondering if that rule helped make them a little more viable.


No, but it's hard to imagine a Tempest Squadron Pilot would be more of an asset in that sense than a Scimitar Squadron Pilot (very different dials, but comparable action bars, offensive contribution, and defensive efficiency)--and I have played against naked Scimitars. So even if you're just planning on tanking your way to a win, I'm not sure the Advanced holds up.

 

Thanks, just thought I'd check.  I WANT to like the Advanced (besides Vader, whom I'll run with EU and Outmaneuver any day of the week).


Current Fleet:

Rebel: 4 A-Wings, 4 B-Wings, 2 HWK-290's, 3 YT-1300s, 4 X-Wings, 2 Y-Wing, 1 Tantive IV, 1 Rebel Transport, 4 E-Wing, 5 Z-95 

Imperial:  3 Lambda Shuttles,  2 Firespray-31's, 3 Tie Advanced, 4 Tie Bombers, 6 Tie Fighters, 2 Tie Interceptors,   2 Imperials Aces, 4 TIE Phantom, 4 TIE Defender

On Pre-order:2 Z-95, 2 Rebel Aces, 2 YT-2400, 2 Decimator


#51 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:41 AM

So I have a question.  A number of people have mentioned the survivability and tankiness of the Advanced.  Has anyone run them in tournament since the change that winning by 12 points is a full win, instead of a modified?  I was just wondering if that rule helped make them a little more viable.

 

Not particularly. The last event I was at I did use three TIE advanced (Vader, Stele, Tempest Squadron Pilot), because I'm a contrary bugger.

 

The "12 point difference" didn't really come into is as all the games went to a clear win or (more normally) a wipe-out. I'd like to be clear that that wasn't all bad results - I won two games, one of which was against Chewbacca and two FCS B-wings, and one against Wedge, Roark and two Rookies. I'll say this - if a game is reduced to a single-ship duel by the end (and it often is!) then there are far worse ships to be in than a TIE Advanced.

 

One thing to note is that I took a hull upgrade on each. This makes them as tough (arguably tougher with Evade tokens) than a TIE defender which costs a good 5 points more. The advantage of a pure Advanced force is it leaves no squishy ships to shoot at, which forces people to shoot at your tough, highly evasive fighters.

 

They are good one-on-one dueling ships - they aren't as manouvrable as a standard TIE but they're manouvrable enough that they can do nasty things to Rebels.

 

Four tempests with Proton Rockets sounds interesting but I'm pointedly aware that what you've essentially made is a 4-ship, Pilot Skill 1, X-wing squad, which there are plenty of ways to deal with.

 

Proton Rockets will help. If anything, they'll help the Tempest and Storm squadron pilot more, because a focus token is a generic response by a low-skill pilot, but they'll add much needed power to Vader and Stele too. I look forward to more games with Advanced!

 

I don't think I want more attack dice. The advanced has only the two lasers, and I don't want +1 attack die modifications floating around out there.

 

When asked for upgrades, people always talk about overcharged lasers and/or the targeting system - suggesting adding a systems slot would provide quite a lot of benefit and seems to be the 'received wisdom' from the forum. Alternatively, for the overpowered lasers, I find myself thinking about "when attacking, if you hit with a primary weapon attack, cause 1 additional damage" - i.e. no easier to hit, but punching much harder if you do....


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#52 Audio Weasel

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:59 AM

 

So I have a question.  A number of people have mentioned the survivability and tankiness of the Advanced.  Has anyone run them in tournament since the change that winning by 12 points is a full win, instead of a modified?  I was just wondering if that rule helped make them a little more viable.

 

Not particularly. The last event I was at I did use three TIE advanced (Vader, Stele, Tempest Squadron Pilot), because I'm a contrary bugger.

 

The "12 point difference" didn't really come into is as all the games went to a clear win or (more normally) a wipe-out. I'd like to be clear that that wasn't all bad results - I won two games, one of which was against Chewbacca and two FCS B-wings, and one against Wedge, Roark and two Rookies. I'll say this - if a game is reduced to a single-ship duel by the end (and it often is!) then there are far worse ships to be in than a TIE Advanced.

 

One thing to note is that I took a hull upgrade on each. This makes them as tough (arguably tougher with Evade tokens) than a TIE defender which costs a good 5 points more. The advantage of a pure Advanced force is it leaves no squishy ships to shoot at, which forces people to shoot at your tough, highly evasive fighters.

 

They are good one-on-one dueling ships - they aren't as manouvrable as a standard TIE but they're manouvrable enough that they can do nasty things to Rebels.

 

Four tempests with Proton Rockets sounds interesting but I'm pointedly aware that what you've essentially made is a 4-ship, Pilot Skill 1, X-wing squad, which there are plenty of ways to deal with.

 

Proton Rockets will help. If anything, they'll help the Tempest and Storm squadron pilot more, because a focus token is a generic response by a low-skill pilot, but they'll add much needed power to Vader and Stele too. I look forward to more games with Advanced!

 

I don't think I want more attack dice. The advanced has only the two lasers, and I don't want +1 attack die modifications floating around out there.

 

When asked for upgrades, people always talk about overcharged lasers and/or the targeting system - suggesting adding a systems slot would provide quite a lot of benefit and seems to be the 'received wisdom' from the forum. Alternatively, for the overpowered lasers, I find myself thinking about "when attacking, if you hit with a primary weapon attack, cause 1 additional damage" - i.e. no easier to hit, but punching much harder if you do....

 

So you're considering a "Boosted TIE Cannon" kind of thing, if i may drag the old Decipher CCG out.

 

(Found my huge stash of cards last night)


Current Fleet:

Rebel: 4 A-Wings, 4 B-Wings, 2 HWK-290's, 3 YT-1300s, 4 X-Wings, 2 Y-Wing, 1 Tantive IV, 1 Rebel Transport, 4 E-Wing, 5 Z-95 

Imperial:  3 Lambda Shuttles,  2 Firespray-31's, 3 Tie Advanced, 4 Tie Bombers, 6 Tie Fighters, 2 Tie Interceptors,   2 Imperials Aces, 4 TIE Phantom, 4 TIE Defender

On Pre-order:2 Z-95, 2 Rebel Aces, 2 YT-2400, 2 Decimator


#53 binici

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:22 AM

You really only need one TIE Advanced. I feel sorry for those who really invested more than two...

Vadar is the only pilot you need for that ship and a swarm!


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#54 Red Castle

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:52 AM

 

So I have a question.  A number of people have mentioned the survivability and tankiness of the Advanced.  Has anyone run them in tournament since the change that winning by 12 points is a full win, instead of a modified?  I was just wondering if that rule helped make them a little more viable.


No, but it's hard to imagine a Tempest Squadron Pilot would be more of an asset in that sense than a Scimitar Squadron Pilot (very different dials, but comparable action bars, offensive contribution, and defensive efficiency)--and I have played against naked Scimitars. So even if you're just planning on tanking your way to a win, I'm not sure the Advanced holds up.

 

To be fair, I consider the Advanced to have a more defensive efficiency than a Bomber: 1 more green dice, Evade action and 3 hull/2 shield instead of 6 hull. The more the game evolve, the more easy it is to inflict a critical hit so even though there is one less hit point, I prefer 2 shield over 3 hull. But is this defensive efficiency worth 5 more points? No.


I'm a french native player so sometimes, some expressions or meanings might be lost in translation. I mean no disrespect.


#55 Red Castle

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:53 AM

 

So, to reiterate somewhat, I don't think the Advanced actually has a cost problem--I think it has an ignorability problem. That's why a Chardaan-Refit-style fix won't work for the Advanced, actually, and why I think whatever FFG comes up with for the Advanced is going to have to be a lot tricksier.

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Even if priced correctly, I'm not sure a lot of people would currently take it over something else, except for flavour.


I'm a french native player so sometimes, some expressions or meanings might be lost in translation. I mean no disrespect.


#56 Zoccola

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:54 AM

My money is on them releasing new TIE-Advanced pilots and upgrades like the did with the X-Wings, in the Imperial huge ships. 


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Rebels: 6 Xwing, 3 Ywings, 2 Awings, 1 YT-1300, 1 HWK, 4 Bwings, 2 Ewings, 4 Z95s

Empire: 8 TIEs, 4 Interceptors, 2 Advanced, 2 Firesprays, 2 Bombers, 1 Shuttle, 2 Phantoms, 3 Defenders

Scum: 4 Z95, 3 Ywings, 1 HWK, 2 Firesprays

 


#57 Audio Weasel

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:10 AM

My money is on them releasing new TIE-Advanced pilots and upgrades like the did with the X-Wings, in the Imperial huge ships. 

I would certainly be OK with this


Current Fleet:

Rebel: 4 A-Wings, 4 B-Wings, 2 HWK-290's, 3 YT-1300s, 4 X-Wings, 2 Y-Wing, 1 Tantive IV, 1 Rebel Transport, 4 E-Wing, 5 Z-95 

Imperial:  3 Lambda Shuttles,  2 Firespray-31's, 3 Tie Advanced, 4 Tie Bombers, 6 Tie Fighters, 2 Tie Interceptors,   2 Imperials Aces, 4 TIE Phantom, 4 TIE Defender

On Pre-order:2 Z-95, 2 Rebel Aces, 2 YT-2400, 2 Decimator


#58 Englishpete

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:10 AM

I have pondered the Advanced for a long time and I originally thought that a systems slot would be the fix it needed, but I have come to the conclusion it just needs the Tie Fighter dial and maybe, maybe an EPT slot on the PS4 version.

 

The extra movement options provided by the Tie dial would make it viable at the current points cost.


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To every man upon this Earth Death cometh soon or late. And how can a man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods?
(Horatius: Captain of the Gate)


#59 Mikael Hasselstein

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:22 AM

You really only need one TIE Advanced. I feel sorry for those who really invested more than two...

Vadar is the only pilot you need for that ship and a swarm!

 

I feel the same way. Vader is the most iconic character of the franchise. He should be unique.

 

Now, we can debate if he costs too much for how much he is worth from a mechanical sense. But, if so, how much would you cost him at, and what is your rationale for that new point value?



#60 Nataris

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:36 AM

Worst ship in the game to date..

Lord Vader would be most disappointed.




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