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Z-Swarm the new swarm meta?


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#81 patox

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 10:08 AM

The straight 5 and tight turn 1 are huge advantages for the tie fighter. The extra maneuvers get them into much better positions and allow them to block the movements of other ships better, while keeping their targets in firing arc.



#82 jpltanis

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 10:43 AM

Flying a swarm squad well, takes special skills.  Not everyone can do it (avoid bumping into each other, deny opponent's action while flanking it w/ others & firing on it at range one.)   It takes lots of practice.

 

No squad is unbeatable (that is what makes X-Wing such a great game), but one can't deny that swarm squads have the highest winning % in combine stats of tourny played since 2012 (swarms has 40%+).    

 

Believe it or not - someone on the board has combined all the results from all the reported tourny played worldwide and their squad types and reported the winning %  of each meta. 


Edited by jpltanis, 13 July 2014 - 10:44 AM.


#83 Osoroshii

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 10:50 AM

Flying a swarm squad well, takes special skills.  Not everyone can do it (avoid bumping into each other, deny opponent's action while flanking it w/ others & firing on it at range one.)   It takes lots of practice.
 
No squad is unbeatable (that is what makes X-Wing such a great game), but one can't deny that swarm squads have the highest winning % in combine stats of tourny played since 2012 (swarms has 40%+).    
 
Believe it or not - someone on the board has combined all the results from all the reported tourny played worldwide and their squad types and reported the winning %  of each meta.


You're exactly right, swarms have been the Squads to beat for some time now. The only thing I would point out is, if you don't count the swarms that include Howlrunner that number all but vanishes. Howlrunner it what makes up the power of the swarm. I do believe there is room for a Z Swarm to be competitive but unlikely to see the same success as a Howlrunner Swarm.
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#84 Aminar

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 11:08 AM

Flying a swarm squad well, takes special skills.  Not everyone can do it (avoid bumping into each other, deny opponent's action while flanking it w/ others & firing on it at range one.)   It takes lots of practice.
 
No squad is unbeatable (that is what makes X-Wing such a great game), but one can't deny that swarm squads have the highest winning % in combine stats of tourny played since 2012 (swarms has 40%+).    
 
Believe it or not - someone on the board has combined all the results from all the reported tourny played worldwide and their squad types and reported the winning %  of each meta.

You're exactly right, swarms have been the Squads to beat for some time now. The only thing I would point out is, if you don't count the swarms that include Howlrunner that number all but vanishes. Howlrunner it what makes up the power of the swarm. I do believe there is room for a Z Swarm to be competitive but unlikely to see the same success as a Howlrunner Swarm.
I don't know that Howlrunner makes up the power of the swarm. I think an Eight Tie Swarm has always been viable. The issue was Howlrunner was better and 7 Ties are cheaper than 8.
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#85 mazz0

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:41 AM

Well I haven't played enough with the Z95 to know which one's "better", but I suspect I'll end up still preferring the Tie Fighter as the more fun ship to play.

 

I must say, there are some people here who seem to be asserting that because the die-maths apparently make the two ships about equal that they therefore are about equal.  I say not so - the dial and the actions (barrel roll vs target lock for example) make a huge difference, and I haven't seen any maths that says "on average you'll use a barrel roll or a speed one turn to get out of an arc roughly x times out of y".



#86 Aminar

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:02 AM

Well I haven't played enough with the Z95 to know which one's "better", but I suspect I'll end up still preferring the Tie Fighter as the more fun ship to play.
 
I must say, there are some people here who seem to be asserting that because the die-maths apparently make the two ships about equal that they therefore are about equal.  I say not so - the dial and the actions (barrel roll vs target lock for example) make a huge difference, and I haven't seen any maths that says "on average you'll use a barrel roll or a speed one turn to get out of an arc roughly x times out of y".

Barrel Roll, evade, and the dial differences just about make up for the fact the Z-95 is a whole lot less likely to be one shotted, and far less vulnerable to critical hits. Ties are great ships, but they are still really easy to blow up in one shot. Against a 4 dice attack(the first reasonably probable one shot location for a Z-95 a Tie fighter is getting one shotted 10% of the time with focus, while a Z95 is getting one shotted 4% of the time. Take away the focuses and the Z-95 is at 11% while the Tie has a 30% chance of getting one shotted.

#87 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:04 AM

Well I haven't played enough with the Z95 to know which one's "better", but I suspect I'll end up still preferring the Tie Fighter as the more fun ship to play.
 
I must say, there are some people here who seem to be asserting that because the die-maths apparently make the two ships about equal that they therefore are about equal.  I say not so - the dial and the actions (barrel roll vs target lock for example) make a huge difference, and I haven't seen any maths that says "on average you'll use a barrel roll or a speed one turn to get out of an arc roughly x times out of y".


Barrel Roll, evade, and the dial differences just about make up for the fact the Z-95 is a whole lot less likely to be one shotted, and far less vulnerable to critical hits. Ties are great ships, but they are still really easy to blow up in one shot. Against a 4 dice attack(the first reasonably probable one shot location for a Z-95 a Tie fighter is getting one shotted 10% of the time with focus, while a Z95 is getting one shotted 4% of the time. Take away the focuses and the Z-95 is at 11% while the Tie has a 30% chance of getting one shotted.


I think they occupy the same price point, and will often be found in the same "filler" role, but they're different ships that do different things. I like it that way, honestly.
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#88 VanorDM

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:06 AM

I like it that way, honestly.


I agree, I think they're great additions to the Rebel Fleet.
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#89 Aminar

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:09 AM

Well I haven't played enough with the Z95 to know which one's "better", but I suspect I'll end up still preferring the Tie Fighter as the more fun ship to play. I must say, there are some people here who seem to be asserting that because the die-maths apparently make the two ships about equal that they therefore are about equal.  I say not so - the dial and the actions (barrel roll vs target lock for example) make a huge difference, and I haven't seen any maths that says "on average you'll use a barrel roll or a speed one turn to get out of an arc roughly x times out of y".

Barrel Roll, evade, and the dial differences just about make up for the fact the Z-95 is a whole lot less likely to be one shotted, and far less vulnerable to critical hits. Ties are great ships, but they are still really easy to blow up in one shot. Against a 4 dice attack(the first reasonably probable one shot location for a Z-95 a Tie fighter is getting one shotted 10% of the time with focus, while a Z95 is getting one shotted 4% of the time. Take away the focuses and the Z-95 is at 11% while the Tie has a 30% chance of getting one shotted.
I think they occupy the same price point, and will often be found in the same "filler" role, but they're different ships that do different things. I like it that way, honestly.

Oh definitley. I just don't see the Z-95 as worse than the Tie fighter.
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#90 mazz0

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:09 AM

 

Well I haven't played enough with the Z95 to know which one's "better", but I suspect I'll end up still preferring the Tie Fighter as the more fun ship to play.
 
I must say, there are some people here who seem to be asserting that because the die-maths apparently make the two ships about equal that they therefore are about equal.  I say not so - the dial and the actions (barrel roll vs target lock for example) make a huge difference, and I haven't seen any maths that says "on average you'll use a barrel roll or a speed one turn to get out of an arc roughly x times out of y".

Barrel Roll, evade, and the dial differences just about make up for the fact the Z-95 is a whole lot less likely to be one shotted, and far less vulnerable to critical hits. Ties are great ships, but they are still really easy to blow up in one shot. Against a 4 dice attack(the first reasonably probable one shot location for a Z-95 a Tie fighter is getting one shotted 10% of the time with focus, while a Z95 is getting one shotted 4% of the time. Take away the focuses and the Z-95 is at 11% while the Tie has a 30% chance of getting one shotted.

 

That's where I don't quite follow you - if you've barrel rolled out of arc then there is no maths involved.

 

I'm just catching up on the rest of the thread (came here from Mr Palpatine's other thread, obviously :P), somebody (might have you been you?) posted a link to another thread where I think they said they'd had a go at putting a mathematical value on dials and actions, I'll check that out later.  I assume it's based on analysis of tournament matches and how much the average (or presumably only the very good, since record of the low level matches would be hard to find) tournament player uses them to get out of trouble.  Still, that's gonna depend greatly on your own skill and play style.



#91 mazz0

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:11 AM

 

 

I think they occupy the same price point, and will often be found in the same "filler" role, but they're different ships that do different things. I like it that way, honestly.

Oh definitley. I just don't see the Z-95 as worse than the Tie fighter.

 

Yeah, me too.  I personally find myself highly inclined to include a mini-swarm of Z95s, but unlike with the Tie Fighter I'm not inclined to use a full one.



#92 Aminar

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:14 AM

Well I haven't played enough with the Z95 to know which one's "better", but I suspect I'll end up still preferring the Tie Fighter as the more fun ship to play.
 
I must say, there are some people here who seem to be asserting that because the die-maths apparently make the two ships about equal that they therefore are about equal.  I say not so - the dial and the actions (barrel roll vs target lock for example) make a huge difference, and I haven't seen any maths that says "on average you'll use a barrel roll or a speed one turn to get out of an arc roughly x times out of y".

Barrel Roll, evade, and the dial differences just about make up for the fact the Z-95 is a whole lot less likely to be one shotted, and far less vulnerable to critical hits. Ties are great ships, but they are still really easy to blow up in one shot. Against a 4 dice attack(the first reasonably probable one shot location for a Z-95 a Tie fighter is getting one shotted 10% of the time with focus, while a Z95 is getting one shotted 4% of the time. Take away the focuses and the Z-95 is at 11% while the Tie has a 30% chance of getting one shotted.
 
That's where I don't quite follow you - if you've barrel rolled out of arc then there is no maths involved.
 
I'm just catching up on the rest of the thread (came here from Mr Palpatine's other thread, obviously :P), somebody (might have you been you?) posted a link to another thread where I think they said they'd had a go at putting a mathematical value on dials and actions, I'll check that out later.  I assume it's based on analysis of tournament matches and how much the average (or presumably only the very good, since record of the low level matches would be hard to find) tournament player uses them to get out of trouble.  Still, that's gonna depend greatly on your own skill and play style.
And then your attack sucks. Barrel Roll is a sacrifice. Beyond that, the PS 1 Barrel Roll is not a reliable arc dodging tool. It's at best, an aid to blocking. I have never met a player who could reliably stay out of arc with a Phantom all game, let alone a Tie Fighter amidst a crowd of tie fighters. I mean, i can say, the maths don't matter when I block you onto an asteroid too. Arc dodging is nice. It is not the strog suit of the Tie Fighter.

#93 mazz0

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:21 AM

Well I haven't played enough with the Z95 to know which one's "better", but I suspect I'll end up still preferring the Tie Fighter as the more fun ship to play. I must say, there are some people here who seem to be asserting that because the die-maths apparently make the two ships about equal that they therefore are about equal.  I say not so - the dial and the actions (barrel roll vs target lock for example) make a huge difference, and I haven't seen any maths that says "on average you'll use a barrel roll or a speed one turn to get out of an arc roughly x times out of y".

Barrel Roll, evade, and the dial differences just about make up for the fact the Z-95 is a whole lot less likely to be one shotted, and far less vulnerable to critical hits. Ties are great ships, but they are still really easy to blow up in one shot. Against a 4 dice attack(the first reasonably probable one shot location for a Z-95 a Tie fighter is getting one shotted 10% of the time with focus, while a Z95 is getting one shotted 4% of the time. Take away the focuses and the Z-95 is at 11% while the Tie has a 30% chance of getting one shotted.
 That's where I don't quite follow you - if you've barrel rolled out of arc then there is no maths involved. I'm just catching up on the rest of the thread (came here from Mr Palpatine's other thread, obviously :P), somebody (might have you been you?) posted a link to another thread where I think they said they'd had a go at putting a mathematical value on dials and actions, I'll check that out later.  I assume it's based on analysis of tournament matches and how much the average (or presumably only the very good, since record of the low level matches would be hard to find) tournament player uses them to get out of trouble.  Still, that's gonna depend greatly on your own skill and play style.
And then your attack sucks. Barrel Roll is a sacrifice. Beyond that, the PS 1 Barrel Roll is not a reliable arc dodging tool. It's at best, an aid to blocking. I have never met a player who could reliably stay out of arc with a Phantom all game, let alone a Tie Fighter amidst a crowd of tie fighters. I mean, i can say, the maths don't matter when I block you onto an asteroid too. Arc dodging is nice. It is not the strog suit of the Tie Fighter.

Maybe not, but it has some effect and how do you quantify that?

#94 Aminar

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:29 AM

Well I haven't played enough with the Z95 to know which one's "better", but I suspect I'll end up still preferring the Tie Fighter as the more fun ship to play. I must say, there are some people here who seem to be asserting that because the die-maths apparently make the two ships about equal that they therefore are about equal.  I say not so - the dial and the actions (barrel roll vs target lock for example) make a huge difference, and I haven't seen any maths that says "on average you'll use a barrel roll or a speed one turn to get out of an arc roughly x times out of y".

Barrel Roll, evade, and the dial differences just about make up for the fact the Z-95 is a whole lot less likely to be one shotted, and far less vulnerable to critical hits. Ties are great ships, but they are still really easy to blow up in one shot. Against a 4 dice attack(the first reasonably probable one shot location for a Z-95 a Tie fighter is getting one shotted 10% of the time with focus, while a Z95 is getting one shotted 4% of the time. Take away the focuses and the Z-95 is at 11% while the Tie has a 30% chance of getting one shotted.
 That's where I don't quite follow you - if you've barrel rolled out of arc then there is no maths involved. I'm just catching up on the rest of the thread (came here from Mr Palpatine's other thread, obviously :P), somebody (might have you been you?) posted a link to another thread where I think they said they'd had a go at putting a mathematical value on dials and actions, I'll check that out later.  I assume it's based on analysis of tournament matches and how much the average (or presumably only the very good, since record of the low level matches would be hard to find) tournament player uses them to get out of trouble.  Still, that's gonna depend greatly on your own skill and play style.
And then your attack sucks. Barrel Roll is a sacrifice. Beyond that, the PS 1 Barrel Roll is not a reliable arc dodging tool. It's at best, an aid to blocking. I have never met a player who could reliably stay out of arc with a Phantom all game, let alone a Tie Fighter amidst a crowd of tie fighters. I mean, i can say, the maths don't matter when I block you onto an asteroid too. Arc dodging is nice. It is not the strog suit of the Tie Fighter.

Maybe not, but it has some effect and how do you quantify that?
By saying it equals out fairly well. The thing this. Arc Dodging is strategically useful on ships with High Pilot Skill, and that are fragile for their cost. Ships you don't want your opponent attacking. A tie fighter costs 12 points. It's paying very little per point of hull in relation to its agility. You want people attacking it rather than say, an Interceptor or Phantom. In a perfect scenario you can manage to have no ships in your opponents arc, but you want a tie fighter in arc more than anything else in the game bar the Z-95. You absolutely want your Z-95s taking attacks. That keeps fire off of your X-Wings, B-Wings, YTS, etc, which all pay more per point of durability. 2 attacks killing a Z95 are two attacks killing something less important to you. So you park your cheap filler ships as easy shots, block up your opponents mobility, and try to make those ships take as much damage as possible while still doing a good chunk of damage.
Which is why I say Arc Dodging on a Tie is mediocre. Now, on Backstabber and Night Beast it's amazing. But we aren't talking named pilots.
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#95 Volund Starfire

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:19 PM

Etahn A'baht/E-Wing (32)

4×Bandit Squadron Pilot/Z-95 Headhunter+Concussion Missiles+Munitions Failsafe (17 each)
 
Etahn lets each of the Bandits change a hit into a crit.  That is almost as good as Howlrunner's ability and is a little worse for potential Imperial non-shielded ships.


#96 Deadshane

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:50 PM

I know it doesn't mean much, but tonight in a game

 

4xBandit

4xTala

 

VS

 

4xBlue w/Adv Sens

 

....just a rough and quick game to see what would happen.

 

Z-95's smoked....SMOKED the B-Wings....like cheap cigars.

 

 

On a personal note, I could be wrong (im hardly the expert with Z-Swarms...but I'm interested), but the 1 forward makes extending the joust just a 'little' bit easier than straight jousting with the ties...who are sort of forced into speed and maneuvering around the scrum.

 

Z's might be able to get a little more out of a straight on offensive joust.  Taking them on that way is probably a really bad idea.

 

You can try to outflank them and maneuver around them to get around jousting, but you're trying to outmaneuver an X-Wing. (which isnt super easy for B's, or any ship really for that matter)

 

Z's get a lot out of a pinwheel formation.

 

Quantity Vs Quality.  I might be hooked.


Edited by Deadshane, 14 July 2014 - 09:58 PM.

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You do not need to see how many ships I own.

This is not the signature you are looking for.

Move along.


#97 MajorJuggler

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:53 PM

2 attack dice want to be attacking low agility targets like B-wings. Against TIEs they won't do quite as well - but they should still be on par with B-wings in terms of overall point efficiency even then.

#98 jpltanis

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:21 PM

There has been many reports on the effectiveness of the Z-swarms.   People who can fly them well will be pleasantly surprised. 

 

Those who takes them lightly will be wondering - what just happened???  (As the Zs tear their squad apart.)

 

If you are a chess player - think of it as trading your pawns for their knights, bishops, & queens. 


Edited by jpltanis, 14 July 2014 - 10:28 PM.


#99 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:37 PM

There has been many reports on the effectiveness of the Z-swarms.   People who can fly them well will be pleasantly surprised. 
 
Those who takes them lightly will be wondering - what just happened???  (As the Zs tear their squad apart.)
 
If you are a chess player - think of it as trading your pawns for their knights, bishops, & queens.


Again, it's not a matter of taking them lightly or not. It's that you're extrapolating from 3x naked Z-95s against 3x naked TIE Fighters to 8 vs 8 of each, which is potentially problematic from the start; then you jump from the effectiveness of 8 naked TIE Fighters to the effectiveness of a more typical TIE swarm; you jump from there to an assertion that Z-95s are superior to TIEs and will replace them as the "new swarm meta".

None of it makes any sense.

Edited by Vorpal Sword, 14 July 2014 - 10:38 PM.


#100 jpltanis

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:02 PM

You need not take my word.  You will see the results from battle reports soon enough.   Don't blame me when your squad is humbled by the Zs in future tournys.  

 

No one is claiming that they are unbeatable or that they to be flown naked.   All I am claiming is that they are tougher than one might think.






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