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Archers aren't really useful


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#1 Denis7

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 07:25 AM

Great game, but...

Daqan and Uthuk archers aren't really very useful in usually fast VP-achievement games with in average 2-3 units working in each turn.

They throw only two dice, and it's actually ONE, because melee unit kills with two outcomes of dice: [X] and [ \ ]  , but archers kill only with one: [O]  .

extra properties (double shot or poison) also add very little.

These settings maybe useful with long campaign with big starting distance between armies. or in very narrow fighting zone.


May be something needs to be changed in these units.(price,fire power...)
or special scenarios should be created for them.

Or if somebody have fond effective way to use arches , I'll be glad to found out. :)

Thank you



#2 cleardave

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 01:42 PM

Daqan archers can be quite good if you have them in solid positions, then play Darken the Skies.  That's 3 units doing 3 attacks each, assuming they didn't move.

 

If you combo that with Enchanted Arrows, you can really wreck your opponent's day; great for clearing out Chaos Lords and units in a building.



#3 LongDarkBlues

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:36 PM

They aren't very useful for direct damage, no, but they are awesome for forcing units to retreat from victory point locations, which is as likely as inflicting damage.



#4 cleardave

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 05:57 PM

They aren't very useful for direct damage, no, but they are awesome for forcing units to retreat from victory point locations, which is as likely as inflicting damage.

 

As likely, and just as useful, depending on the scenario, the game state, location of VP hexes, etc.  I'll take a retreat if it means you put a unit holding a building into the hex behind it.  If you're scaring the unit off a VP hex, they have to waste an activation just to take it back, instead of pushing something more aggressive against your lines.

 

I find this game to very tactical, meaning that you can't really plan for too much ahead of time.  The system provides to many variables in terms of how you're able to move around the board and attack, so you're really only able to plan a turn or two ahead tops, and that's without the variance coming from the Lore deck.



#5 Denis7

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:31 AM

Yes, you right , game is very tactical

 

but still, to force enemy unit  out of VP-hex, melee or flying unit can do as well with more dices (=more chances) and also to take this hex after attack. 

 

and combo of lorecard are good, but it's more in hand of fate so, it hard to count on it.

And for mellee units there also many good combos.

 

 

Only benefit of archers is 4 hexex range is often netrualized by blocking terrain or blocking friendly units.

 

I really love archery in common, and I would like to use archers in game, but right now, they are not as usefull as their foe units
 



#6 cleardave

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:44 PM

For forcing enemies out of hexes, sure, a melee unit can do it too with more dice, but they have to get there first, whereas the archers can jump on a hill or other terrain piece and cover a critical area from there.  Again, it's hard to make catch-all strategies for this game, and I would honestly say that if you're getting better results without them, stick to that.

 

If your playstyle works better that way, don't fight it, and you'll have better games.



#7 Denis7

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 12:00 PM

For forcing enemies out of hexes, sure, a melee unit can do it too with more dice, but they have to get there first, whereas the archers can jump on a hill or other terrain piece and cover a critical area from there.  Again, it's hard to make catch-all strategies for this game, and I would honestly say that if you're getting better results without them, stick to that.

 

If your playstyle works better that way, don't fight it, and you'll have better games.

Thank you  for your support)



#8 CorvusITA

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 07:02 AM

Couple more good reasons that make all archers quite efficient (apart from the 4h treath range):

-they can move out of other melee units threat range and still attack them. it's virtually impossible for a melee unit to catch them and they will still have their attack going every turn

-even when you have the last miniature their efficiency stays the same

-they don't get counterattacks

 

Apart from that both the special abilities of the units balance the lack of punch

 

Daqan: when they don't move they use 4 dices on two separate attacks, it means they have 4 chances to hit per turn, melee units just have 6. The chances to gain lore or male the target flee are higher. Their main use is not killing enemies, but messing up their plans.

 

Vipers:2 possible hits and 2 poisoning per turn plus 2 flee and 2 lore...ok, this makes 66% of the results useful, not bad. Again, they are not killers, but tactical units. less efficient than the D-archers but on a long game with slow units all that poisoning can make the difference

 

I'm new to the game, just played a couple games, but had a lot of Warmachines a few years ago...hope this can help



#9 CorvusITA

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 07:03 AM

sorry, double post


Edited by CorvusITA, 09 September 2014 - 07:04 AM.


#10 sigmazero13

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 01:06 PM

-they don't get counterattacks

 

You may know this already, but just to make sure, it's worth pointing out that this is only true if they are shooting from a distance.  If the archers are adjacent to their target, their target would get to counterattack as normal.



#11 CorvusITA

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 03:27 AM

Of course you are right.

But it just happens once in a lifetime that you attack an adjacent unit. It only happens if you planned something wrong or if it's your only option...

If you choose to play an archers-heavy list it's because you have a scenery that allows you to hold the position and make attrition strategy.



#12 DAMaz

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 10:13 AM

I think archers are a great defensive unit and it's often quite handy to have a few of them when your other troops can't do much usefull. At the best you still do something this turn and at the worst you generate some lore.

 

However I think their biggest problem is that if you attack a tile and force a retreat, your melee units you moved adjacent to this tile in the same round can't occupy that space or attack anything anymore, which made their activation somehow useless.



#13 Julia

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 03:56 PM

However I think their biggest problem is that if you attack a tile and force a retreat, your melee units you moved adjacent to this tile in the same round can't occupy that space or attack anything anymore, which made their activation somehow useless.

 

That's why you should preemptively move your melee units to block eventual retreats, or save ranged units as the last units to shot while resolving combats: it's very likely that you can change target if the originally selected one is no longer available.

 

Additionally, ranged units, rolling only 2 attack dice, doesn't suffer from being in forest hexes (their attack value remains unchanged by the terrain modification) and while staying in such hexes, forces enemy units to roll only 2 dice for attacking them. Hence, by keeping ranged units in forests, you force your opponent to choose between losing at least two attacks to get read of one of your ranged units, or risk having them shooting arrows the whole game. They can be incredibly annoying.

 

Finally, there are some key points for ranged units: positioning for Daqan, and tag-team working for Uthulk. For Daqan: if you place a Yeoman Archers unit in the proper spot (a place from which you have quite a clear line of sight in more than one direction), Double Shot is triggered every bloody time you activate the unit, hence basically giving you 4 attack dice (that can of course be split among two different enemy units to attack), which is rather heavy even if they hit only on a [pierce] result. Uthuk Archers on the other hand allow you to poison enemy units: every unit attacking a poisoned unit may commit a [lore] result to commit one damage. Hence, for instance, if you melee-attack a poisoned unit, you deal damage to them with 3 out of 6 results / die rolled, and this can be a party killer. Literally.

 

So, to sum this up: archers are useful, but they are less intuitive to use than other types of units. Still, if managed properly, they can help a lot in winning a game.


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