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Greedy Skill


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#1 krimmst

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:57 PM

The card says (it has the action symbol as well)

Search a search token within 3 spaces of you.

Does that mean only 1 search token is able to be done with this skill? What if they are able to move within 3 spaces of one search token, and then able to continue moving and end up within 3 spaces of another search token, does that mean they are able to search both tokens with this skill? Or does it only apply to 1 search token?

#2 Whitewing

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 09:04 PM

You can only use it for one search token. It clearly states: Search "A" search token. It does not say "Search all search tokens within 3 spaces of you." Nor does it say "Search all search tokens you move within 3 spaces of this turn."



#3 rfisha

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 09:14 PM

The card doesn't state that it needs to be exhausted, but it does take an action.  It may be viable if the movement was not performed as part of a move action so that you had two actions available (1st Action Greedy, (fatigue / move), 2nd Action Greedy).

 

As long as you are only taking two actions in your turn, Greedy can be used twice.



#4 Zaltyre

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 09:22 PM

The card doesn't state that it needs to be exhausted, but it does take an action.  It may be viable if the movement was not performed as part of a move action so that you had two actions available (1st Action Greedy, (fatigue / move), 2nd Action Greedy).

 

As long as you are only taking two actions in your turn, Greedy can be used twice.

I agree. I believe it would be fine to use your whole turn to "greedy" twice, since, as you say, it's not exhausted.



#5 krimmst

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 07:23 AM

  Good point on the fatigue & two Greedy actions....thanks guys!



#6 any2cards

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 09:15 AM

You can only use it for one search token. It clearly states: Search "A" search token. It does not say "Search all search tokens within 3 spaces of you." Nor does it say "Search all search tokens you move within 3 spaces of this turn."

 

I have learned from long painful experience of playing FFG games over many, many years that any attempt to interpret or otherwise read into a card's text, especially literally, is a huge mistake.

 

Further, taking the position that "... it would have said this or that" if they wanted you to be able to do something is, if anything, a bigger mistake.

 

FFG games leave much to be desired when it comes to the accuracy and meaning/intent of text on cards.

 

Take Descent First Edition for example.  I can't begin to count the number of times that people made posts within the forum stating that there was NO DOUBT that the way text on a card was worded that it could only mean one thing ...

 

Only to see FAQ version 192.6.3 come out saying they were wrong.

 

In this specific case of OP's question, I think an argument can very strongly be made that if you can get within 3 spaces of any number of Search tokens, you can search them all with the Greedy ability (subject of course to not exceeding the number of actions you are permitted, or the utilization of some skill or ability).

 

For example, the combination of Greedy with Silhouette is particularly deadly.  Her Heroic feet allows her to Action: Move double your speed. You may search any number of search tokens you move adjacent to during this movement without performing an action to so.  Combine this with her stamina, and you can reach across virtually any dungeon in D2e, and hit all search tokens, on a single turn.



#7 Whitewing

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 09:55 AM

 

You can only use it for one search token. It clearly states: Search "A" search token. It does not say "Search all search tokens within 3 spaces of you." Nor does it say "Search all search tokens you move within 3 spaces of this turn."

 

I have learned from long painful experience of playing FFG games over many, many years that any attempt to interpret or otherwise read into a card's text, especially literally, is a huge mistake.

 

Further, taking the position that "... it would have said this or that" if they wanted you to be able to do something is, if anything, a bigger mistake.

 

FFG games leave much to be desired when it comes to the accuracy and meaning/intent of text on cards.

 

Take Descent First Edition for example.  I can't begin to count the number of times that people made posts within the forum stating that there was NO DOUBT that the way text on a card was worded that it could only mean one thing ...

 

Only to see FAQ version 192.6.3 come out saying they were wrong.

 

In this specific case of OP's question, I think an argument can very strongly be made that if you can get within 3 spaces of any number of Search tokens, you can search them all with the Greedy ability (subject of course to not exceeding the number of actions you are permitted, or the utilization of some skill or ability).

 

For example, the combination of Greedy with Silhouette is particularly deadly.  Her Heroic feet allows her to Action: Move double your speed. You may search any number of search tokens you move adjacent to during this movement without performing an action to so.  Combine this with her stamina, and you can reach across virtually any dungeon in D2e, and hit all search tokens, on a single turn.

 

 

You have nothing else other than the text to work with. Until such a time as there is an official word that the text is wrong, the text is what you go off of, as literally as possible. That's how rules as written works as a concept.

 

Otherwise you might ignore the text entirely and just have it do whatever you feel like having it do, since the text doesn't matter. 


Edited by Whitewing, 10 July 2014 - 09:56 AM.

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#8 any2cards

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:01 PM

Fine.  Let's go by the text:

 

"Search a Search token within 3 spaces of you".

 

There is absolutely nothing in this statement that restricts this to one search token.  Your emphasis of changing "a" to "A" to imply only one is erroneous.  It is simply stating, taking it literally, that once within 3 spaces of a Search token, you may search it.

 

Should you be able to get within 3 spaces of multiple search tokens, the statement above does not restrict you in anyway from being able to search multiple search tokens, subject only to the rules of the number of actions you may take.



#9 krimmst

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:16 PM

In that case I would still assume it's only a single search token that this would apply (using 1 of 2 actions, assuming they were able to get there by other means of a non-movement action).  Now if it said "Search any search tokens within 3 spaces of you" then I would say have at it.  However I have no idea what is right or wrong, hence why I posted the question about that skill.  Obviously the Heroes would say it is good for any search tokens along the way, and the OL would say that it applies to only 1 search token.  I feel like there's always too many ways to interpret all the cards/abilities/quests with FFG games, wonder why they wouldn't make it extremely clear cut.  Unless they are clear cut and I'm just a moron, which is most likely the case!



#10 Whitewing

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:16 PM

No, literally speaking, it says to search a search token. A search token is one search token. If you had two search tokens adjacent to each other, could you search them both with one search action? Of course not. Greedy as a skill simply allows you to spend fatigue to perform a search action on a search token from 3 spaces away.

 

I can't at all wrap my head around what you are suggesting. The article 'a' in the english language is singular. The word token in the text is not plural either.

 

It doesn't say "Search tokens within 3 spaces". It couldn't be any clearer that it is singular and not plural.


Edited by Whitewing, 10 July 2014 - 12:18 PM.


#11 any2cards

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 01:59 PM

<Sigh>

 

Seriously?  Are you that dense?

 

Since search token is singular within the sentence, it has no choice but to use the word "a".  Otherwise, it wouldn't be proper English.

 

It does NOT, however, say "one".  For example, it could have said "Search one Search Token within 3 spaces of you".  That would be the correct way to limit you to a single attempt.

 

In fact, there are cards within this game that do EXACTLY that.  This one does not.

 

I can't possibly be more clear than this.  I am done with this thread.



#12 Whitewing

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:05 PM

I'm not the one being dense here, I'm sorry if you feel that way. In English, the singular is exactly the same as saying 'one'. You are arguing that because it doesn't go extremely far out of it's way to limit itself in a way that it shouldn't need to, you can do more than the card says you can. Well no, you can't. The card says "a search token". In English, that means one search token, period, end of story.



#13 Steve-O

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 04:30 PM

You and I have been friends for a while, Any2. I respect you as a fellow gamer and you frequently have intelligent things to say. That said, I really don't see your basis for saying this text could somehow imply multiple search tokens be acquired from a single action.

If I said "I'll buy that for a dollar" would you question how many dollars I'm proposing to spend?

I won't deny that FFG has a terrible track record for vaguely worded rules and missing corner cases that could have been covered by better wording, but the Greedy skill is not a complicated effect. Just because they sometimes write things poorly doesn't mean every single card must be incorrect.

"A token" is clearly singular and I don't see anything about the card to suggest it might be intended otherwise. Sorry bro, but I think Whitewing has the right of it here.

#14 any2cards

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 07:46 PM

Wow.   :D

 

Perhaps this misunderstanding is all on me ... perhaps I am interpreting something Whitewing is saying, in a way that he never intended.  And perhaps it is a good thing that Steve-O made the post he did.

 

To be clear ...

 

At no time did I say (or at least intended to say) that anyone can search more than one search token for a single action.

 

What I did say (or intended to say) was that as long as I have actions and/or skills and/or Heroic Feats and/or abilities that permit it, I can use the Greedy skill MULTIPLE times in a single turn.  Whitewing implied (or at least I thought he was implying), that because it said "Search a Search Token within 3 spaces", you could only use Greedy once per Hero turn period.

 

That is the part that I disagree with.  If that indeed is not what Whitewing was implying, then I spent a better part of my day beating my head against the wall for nothing  :P !



#15 Whitewing

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 09:14 PM

Oh, no, I never said that at all. I meant for each use of greedy, you can search only one search token. The skill is not exhausted, so you can use it again if you have the available action to search another token.

 

You seemed to be suggesting that you could search multiple search tokens with each use of Greedy, which is what I disagreed with.



#16 any2cards

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:22 AM

I apologize for the amount of vitirol that appeared in my posts yesterday in this thread.

 

While not meant as an excuse, I will say that I live with a lesion in my brain that causes me an immense amount of pain.  Yesterday was a very, very bad day pain wise.  Between that and the meds I took to combat it, I think it made me just a little bit muddled when it came to understanding the point you (Whitewing) were making.

 

It took Steve-O's sledge hammer to knock some sense into me.  Given Whitewing's well thought out arguments in the past, I should have known better.

 

Here's to hoping I have a better, more productive, and intelligent day today.  :D


Edited by any2cards, 11 July 2014 - 05:35 AM.

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#17 Whitewing

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:11 PM

No problem, don't let it bother you.



#18 fealthas

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:13 AM

I always assumed the action symbol meant the card (skill) was also exhausted.

 

I mean.... It's the same symbol as magic the gathering's tap symbol! :D

 

But reading the rules again I can see you are right.



#19 Steve-O

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:30 AM

I always assumed the action symbol meant the card (skill) was also exhausted.
 
I mean.... It's the same symbol as magic the gathering's tap symbol! :D


Don't feel bad about it; a lot of people make that (erroneous) association between Descent's action symbol and MtG's tap symbol when they're first learning the game. =)

Edited by Steve-O, 12 July 2014 - 07:31 AM.


#20 Carbini

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 01:38 AM

 

I always assumed the action symbol meant the card (skill) was also exhausted.
 
I mean.... It's the same symbol as magic the gathering's tap symbol! :D


Don't feel bad about it; a lot of people make that (erroneous) association between Descent's action symbol and MtG's tap symbol when they're first learning the game. =)

 

A-freaking-men... every new player I get thinks they need to just turn it sideways and it doesn't cost an action... And honestly to no fault of their own. Magic is quite an old game and has beat things into our heads pretty deep. But I've been clean for years on THAT game...






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