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Repeating crossbow and skills hitting multiple targets.


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#1 Sixko

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 03:02 PM

http://descent2e.wik...eating_Crossbow

 

What happens if you are using the repeating crossbow together with a skill that hits several targets, lets say Tetherys heroic feat (Use after rolling your attack dice to choose a second valid target for your attack. Both targets are affected by the attack and roll defense dice separately), and you roll a surge and choose "this attack affects 1 additional figure adjacent to your target"

 

Will the surge effect hit 2 extra figures for a total of 4 (provided that there are adjacent figures to hit) or will it be a total of 3 figures hit?

 

What if target A and B are adjacent to each other, will one of them be hit twice?

 

 



#2 Steve-O

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 03:35 PM

Will the surge effect hit 2 extra figures for a total of 4 (provided that there are adjacent figures to hit) or will it be a total of 3 figures hit?


You will affect a total of 3 figures, the 3rd of which must be adjacent to at least one of the two actual targets the attack includes. Take care to note the difference between "targeted" and "affected" for the basic attack being made - Tetherys's ability actually targets both figures and therefore the 3rd "affected" figure may be adjacent to either, however, this may not always be the case.

What if target A and B are adjacent to each other, will one of them be hit twice?


A figure is either affected by an attack or not affected. There is no such thing as "affected twice."

In theory you could choose B (for example) as your extra figure being adjacent to A, which would make him "affected by the attack," but he was already "affected" by this attack, so this would not do anything. It's the same case as walking fire breath over the same figure multiple times - he's already affected so he takes damage, but he doesn't take damage multiple times.

#3 Sixko

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 11:16 PM

Thanks again Steve-O, that was how I wanted to rule it as well but my heroes did not agree with me and I could not formulate a good response as to why they would only be able to hit 3 figures.

They reasoned that since they could add +3 damage (the other surge ability on the crossbow) to both targets using tetherys heroic feat they should be able to hit 4 targets, I argued that that would be using the same surge ability twice which is not allowed but I could explain it to them very well.



#4 Zaltyre

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:27 PM

 

Will the surge effect hit 2 extra figures for a total of 4 (provided that there are adjacent figures to hit) or will it be a total of 3 figures hit?


You will affect a total of 3 figures, the 3rd of which must be adjacent to at least one of the two actual targets the attack includes. Take care to note the difference between "targeted" and "affected" for the basic attack being made - Tetherys's ability actually targets both figures and therefore the 3rd "affected" figure may be adjacent to either, however, this may not always be the case.

What if target A and B are adjacent to each other, will one of them be hit twice?


A figure is either affected by an attack or not affected. There is no such thing as "affected twice."

In theory you could choose B (for example) as your extra figure being adjacent to A, which would make him "affected by the attack," but he was already "affected" by this attack, so this would not do anything. It's the same case as walking fire breath over the same figure multiple times - he's already affected so he takes damage, but he doesn't take damage multiple times.

 

This may be a different situation, Steve-o, but I was looking through the unofficial FAQ, and found an interesting case of a figure being "targeted" twice:

 

Q: When monster uses skills like Flail, Leap, which target number of heroes, one of which is Knight, can Knight use Defend? What will the effect be? The figure cannot be attacked by the same attack twice, so does it cancel out one of targets?
 
A: Yes, the Knight may use Defend against attacks that target multiple heroes. This is a fine distinction of nomenclature between "targeting" and "targeted by". Technically, the (let's say merriod) merriod is targeting 2 different heroes, one of which is the Knight. The Knight uses defend to declare himself the target of the other attack as well, so both attacks affect him, and he rolls his defense dice once for each attack.
 
To me, that says that the knight is essentially being hit by the same attack twice.


#5 Steve-O

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 04:43 PM

They reasoned that since they could add +3 damage (the other surge ability on the crossbow) to both targets using tetherys heroic feat.


To assist you in further discussions, it is not exactly correct to say you're adding +3 damage to "both targets." What you're actually doing is adding +3 damage to the attack. Damage dealt by the attack is dealt to all figures affected by that attack.

The net result is the same, but there's a subtle difference in understanding how the rules work. Surge abilities add different effects to the attack itself, which then propagate to any figures affected.

This may be a different situation, Steve-o, but I was looking through the unofficial FAQ, and found an interesting case of a figure being "targeted" twice:
 
Q: When monster uses skills like Flail, Leap, which target number of heroes, one of which is Knight, can Knight use Defend? What will the effect be? The figure cannot be attacked by the same attack twice, so does it cancel out one of targets?
 
A: Yes, the Knight may use Defend against attacks that target multiple heroes. This is a fine distinction of nomenclature between "targeting" and "targeted by". Technically, the (let's say merriod) merriod is targeting 2 different heroes, one of which is the Knight. The Knight uses defend to declare himself the target of the other attack as well, so both attacks affect him, and he rolls his defense dice once for each attack.
 
To me, that says that the knight is essentially being hit by the same attack twice.


Hmm, interesting. I was not previously aware of that FAQ question. I suppose, given this, the OP might consider submitting the question to FFG to get an official answer on whether or not the repeating crossbow can hit a single figure twice in conjunction with skills like Tehtrys's.

Personally, I would be inclined to consider this an effect of Defend rather than an effect of Flail (et al.) That could very well be my own bias talking, though.

#6 Zaltyre

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 11:25 PM

I definitely agree that its an effect of defend- and it's the only case I know of where an attack can affect a target twice. The knight is fending off one tentacle, and then jumping in front of another. I don't know how Tetherys's feat would work, though- perhaps a figure already being affected is not a valid target to pick?

 

"Blast" is explicitly stated to only affect each figure once per attack, but a rule question on the repeating crossbow would be important for other reasons. Say, for example, a runemaster has "inscribe rune" so he can treat the crossbow as a rune, and "exploding rune." Could the repeating crossbow attack a monster, blast its neighbor, affect the neighbor with the surge, and blast the original target for a total of 2 attacks on each of 2 monsters?

 

To keep things simple, I think I'd house-rule against Justin's decision on the knight's ability, and stick with the ironclad rule that "each figure may be affected at most once by a single attack." That way whether you're targeted, affected, or a large monster, you're either affected or not, as you explained earlier. Whether or not you're "targeted" could have certain implications for skills and such, but you'd only have to deal with the dice once.



#7 Sixko

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 11:29 PM

 

They reasoned that since they could add +3 damage (the other surge ability on the crossbow) to both targets using tetherys heroic feat.


To assist you in further discussions, it is not exactly correct to say you're adding +3 damage to "both targets." What you're actually doing is adding +3 damage to the attack. Damage dealt by the attack is dealt to all figures affected by that attack.

The net result is the same, but there's a subtle difference in understanding how the rules work. Surge abilities add different effects to the attack itself, which then propagate to any figures affected.

 

 

Cheers, that might help explaining it to them :)



#8 Sixko

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 11:35 PM

"Blast" is explicitly stated to only affect each figure once per attack, but a rule question on the repeating crossbow would be important for other reasons. Say, for example, a runemaster has "inscribe rune" so he can treat the crossbow as a rune, and "exploding rune." Could the repeating crossbow attack a monster, blast its neighbor, affect the neighbor with the surge, and blast the original target for a total of 2 attacks on each of 2 monsters?

 

Are you saying that the extra target from the surge would trigger another blast?

I would have thought that only the original attack would be a blast and that for a surge 1 more adjacent figure could be hit.



#9 Zaltyre

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 07:35 AM

 

"Blast" is explicitly stated to only affect each figure once per attack, but a rule question on the repeating crossbow would be important for other reasons. Say, for example, a runemaster has "inscribe rune" so he can treat the crossbow as a rune, and "exploding rune." Could the repeating crossbow attack a monster, blast its neighbor, affect the neighbor with the surge, and blast the original target for a total of 2 attacks on each of 2 monsters?

 

Are you saying that the extra target from the surge would trigger another blast?

I would have thought that only the original attack would be a blast and that for a surge 1 more adjacent figure could be hit.

 

The attack itself gains "Blast," so all adjacent figures are getting hit anyway. Blast itself does not chain- you're right, However, the crossbow lets you affect an adjacent monster with the attack. Granted, you're not "targeting" a second space adjacent to your target (which I think means you're right, the surge on the crossbow would be useless in that case, but that's what I think needs clarification.) I think this situation is different than fire breath (where tracing over a spot multiple times doesn't matter) because there are two separate effects causing adjacent figures to be affected.

 

Now, if the crossbow said "choose an additional target adjacent to your initial target (very much like the wording on Tetherys' feat,) I think the blast would be measured from each target space. I think the distinction between "affect" and "target" is very important- Blast says each space adjacent to the "target" space is affected by the attack- why wouldn't two target spaces imply two places to measure blast from?

 

However, if you somehow combine blast with a condition (say, poison,) each affected figure seems to have the possibility of getting poisoned (as per the FAQ,)  even though the wording of poisoned is, "...the target is poisoned." Perhaps the blasted figures shouldn't be poisoned by a strict reading? Do you see how it's all getting complicated very quickly? This is why I think it makes sense to just say that all figures affected by an attack can only be affected once, and the "target space" (or spaces, as the case may be) are special in that they may react to certain keywords on ability or equipment (like the heavy cloak and canceling a surge on an attack that targets you.)


Edited by Zaltyre, 11 July 2014 - 09:20 AM.


#10 Zaltyre

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:50 AM

Not to double post, but I did find a partial answer on the FFG Sez thread:

 

Q.Do adjacent units targeted by an attack with Blast both take the extra blast damage in addition to the targeted damage?
 
A: Blast isn't an ability characterized by initial damage + splash damage; it means the single attack affects multiple figures. If two figures are attacked with Widow Tarha's feat and happen to be adjacent (and Blast is triggered), there wouldn't be any additional affect. Excepting some very unique circumstances, being affected by an attack is either a yes or no situation, not a stacking one. 
 
Widow Tarha's feat (for reference) "affects" two figures in her line of sight. This answer says that if both were blasted, it wouldn't really matter (for those two spaces, spaces around them would still get blasted once.) I'm wondering if the "special cases" he's talking about involve feats like Tetherys'.
 
However, as I read more, I'm leaning heavily toward "the crossbow surge grants you 1 additional figure to affect by your attack." Since you only make one attack roll, you don't get to invoke that multiple times, even if you have more than one target. The reason I'm confused about "Blast" is it says "each figure adjacent to the target space is affected" and in the case of Tetherys' feat, there would indeed be multiple target spaces.


#11 Steve-O

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:57 AM

Are you saying that the extra target from the surge would trigger another blast?
I would have thought that only the original attack would be a blast and that for a surge 1 more adjacent figure could be hit.


Blast affects all spaces adjacent to the target of the attack. In this case, there are two targets, so all spaces adjacent to each target are affected. This is why it's important to distinguish between being "targeted" and being "affected" by an attack.

All targets are affected, but not all affected figures are targeted.

#12 Sixko

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 10:36 AM

Cheers guys, complicated situation for sure but I think you have made it clear how it should be played.






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