Jump to content



Photo

Corruption Points


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#21 Fgdsfg

Fgdsfg

    Lrod-Iniquitsor

  • Members
  • 1,632 posts

Posted 24 July 2014 - 03:26 AM

From our point of view in the real world, the Ogryns came about through mutation and adaptation, and, basically, basic evolution. By our definitions, they aren't really mutants, and they aren't mutants in 40k either. They're an evolutionary branch of humanity, or, in 40k terms, abhuman.

I don't know if I'd call it "basic" evolution. That sort of thing doesn't happen over the course of ~10.000 years. More like they were radically altered by exposure to warp energies and/or radiation (though I don't believe radiation-based mutations usually carry over to the next generation, so warp seems a lot more likely - but then again, comic book logic) and the abominations that resulted eventually sexed themselves into a fairly homogenous shape.
 
I suppose that could be called evolution (my next genetor will definitely write a large number of dissertations on "unnatural selection") but hardly basic. :P

Whatever the case, in most cases of abhumans, the warp had nothing (direct) to do with it. Ogryns, Squats, and Ratlings are all evolutionary offshoots that developed on specific planets and specific natural circumstances. They're not mutations by "modern" imperial standards (although many might surely consider them as such, simply because they aren't of the norm and the vast majority of the Imperium's populace is ignorant).

Basic evolution absolutely happen over the course of 10,000 years (or less), though, although the process might be hard-pressed to result in such large differences in such a short timespan. Evolution is really just a process of favoured reproduction and epigenetic influences. Modern life has stifled this to an extent in humans, but if these populations were cut off from the rest of humanity, odds are only a few survived and lived to evolve and repopulate their planets.

And it's likely closer to 40 000 years, anyway. Still short, from an evolutionary perspective, but potentially more than enough. Abhumans haven't evolved over the last 10 000 years, it's likely been going on since humans got there, likely in the beginning of the 2nd millennium or something.

Anyway, I'm rambling. My point was that the warp didn't create abhumans, except arguably psykers, if you consider psykers abhuman. From an objective in-universe point of view, tl;dr: evolution did it.

Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#22 Magellan

Magellan

    Member

  • Members
  • 520 posts

Posted 24 July 2014 - 03:45 AM

40.000 years is the time that's passed between the birth of Christ and current time in 40k. Ogryns have definitely not been developing for that long.

 

I also disagree vehemently with the notion that even 40.000 years of natural evolution could turn humans into ogryns or beastmen. Not only that, but whatever the current species are considered (a classification most likely based on utility, anyway) I see no evidence that their ancestors were not violently mutated by exposure to warp or comic book radiation. Especially as natural evolution would imply that their circumstances actually selected for stupidity, as intelligence and strength are not mutually exclusive.

 

Ratlings I can actually see, however. They're just short, malnourished humans with ridiculous body hair - and we don't consider Australians to be a different species, after all.


I am the latest model of a Fabricator-General
My body isn't nearly as much animal as mineral
My learnedness is legend; my accomplishments historical
For hereteks and aliens my hatred's categorical


#23 Fgdsfg

Fgdsfg

    Lrod-Iniquitsor

  • Members
  • 1,632 posts

Posted 24 July 2014 - 06:26 AM

40.000 years is the time that's passed between the birth of Christ and current time in 40k. Ogryns have definitely not been developing for that long.

Nope. 40k counts from when man started leaving Terra, not from the birth of Christ. Unless something's changed, at least.
 

I also disagree vehemently with the notion that even 40.000 years of natural evolution could turn humans into ogryns or beastmen. Not only that, but whatever the current species are considered (a classification most likely based on utility, anyway) I see no evidence that their ancestors were not violently mutated by exposure to warp or comic book radiation. Especially as natural evolution would imply that their circumstances actually selected for stupidity, as intelligence and strength are not mutually exclusive.

If we assume that the Recent Out of Africa-theory is correct, the multitude of existing human evolutionary varieties have arisen over the last ~100 000 years, so ~40 000 years isolated on foreign planets? Short, improbable, maybe, but not impossible. But either way, the very real and very valid objections of real-world science doesn't matter overly much in this case, because as I said, from an objective in-universe point of view, abhuman are evolutionary offshoots. Stable, natural mutations.

And for Ogryns, it doesn't have to select for stupidity, it merely has to select for simple-mindedness. There are studies that suggests that Neanderthals actually had superior cognitive abilities compared to early homo sapien sapiens, but that their ponderous and calm nature led to their death/outbreeding by european tribes (which is why only whites/europeans have Neanderthal DNA).

Evolutionary, while there is nothing mutually exclusive between physical strength and intelligence, there is nothing saying that intelligence automatically wins out in a contest. Ogryns developed on barren, high-gravity prison-planets. The genetic material available likely already had a high propensity for violence, low intelligence, poor cognitive abilities, dysfunctional reward system(s) and poor decision-making skills/poor causality judgement. They were then dumped in an environment that did not allow for cultural or civilizational development, where violence and scavenging were likely favoured evolutionary traits.
 

Ratlings I can actually see, however. They're just short, malnourished humans with ridiculous body hair - and we don't consider Australians to be a different species, after all.

And inbred. Don't forget inbred.

Not Australians, but Ratlings, I mean.

Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#24 Nameless2all

Nameless2all

    Member

  • Members
  • 732 posts

Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:45 AM

You both might be right.

 

"The Age of Terra, also sometimes called the Age of Progress in older Imperial texts, is the era of human history between the 1st and 15th Millennia (1 - 15,001 AD) when Mankind advanced from a pre-industrial Iron Age culture to become a star-spanning Fusion Age civilization. The original reason for numbering the years from this point, that it was believed to be the year of the birth of the ancient religious leader Jesus Christ, has long been forgotten by humanity, which now possesses only one religion -- a deep faith in the God-Emperor of Mankind and his Imperial Cult. During the long years of the Age of Terra, humanity came to dominate the Earth culturally and technologically. Myriad human civilizations came and went during this long span of now mostly forgotten human history. The Solar System was ultimately colonized once humanity developed the necessary technology to leave the Earth's orbit in the late 2nd Millennium and the early 3rd Millennium. Mankind colonized Mars and lived on the moons of Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune. Advanced fusion and anti-matter propulsion technology was developed that eventually allowed humanity to construct interstellar starships that could colonize other star systems. At the very end of the period in the 15th Millennium and stretching into the next era in human history, the Age of Technology, humanity began to colonize the stars using these sub-light spacecraft. At first only nearby star systems could be reached and the human colonies established on them were required to survive as independent states since they were separated from Earth by up to ten human generations' time of travel. Almost nothing of this period's events is known to current Imperial historians, though it is clear that the Emperor was alive and on Earth throughout this period, disguising his true abilities and immortal nature as he moved from identity to identity, always trying to better the lot of humanity, physically, intellectually and spiritually."

 

Anyhoot, I always believed they were evolved/mutated/natured/created by scientific means to survive their harsh environments.  Maybe not fully, but to an extent that altered their genes into a stable platform that could survive the living conditions presented to them.  Of course, from there "evolution" took over.  But that is just my two cents.  Can't really remember where I read it, or if it just made more sense to me because of the setting.  It's Warhammer 40k though, and we are just debating semantics here.


For a collection of fan created material, please refer to the link below. Some of it was edited/created by myself and friends, while most is other fan material. Happy gaming people.https://drive.google.com<p>-"May your endeavors always be prosperous, though they may not always be profitable."


#25 Magellan

Magellan

    Member

  • Members
  • 520 posts

Posted 24 July 2014 - 12:41 PM

Semantics would be debating the meaning of a word or phrase. A lot of other things in this thread are debatable, but we are most assuredly not arguing semantics. I'm arguing semantics right now, telling you the meaning of the word "semantics".

 

What you are saying about the timeline supports my point, though (although I'm not a big supporter of the 40k wiki in general - lots of unsourced fan content). The number after the M in the Imperial dating system is the number of the millenium, counted from the birth of Jesus Christ. We are presently in the year 014.M3, a.k.a. 2014, and we're in the third millenium. Unfortunately, the only source I have is: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Dating_System#.U9FO4rG62qk

 

And Fdgsfg, that's 100.000 years for a change in skin colour, versus significantly less to create an entire new species. The potential difference in intelligence between neanderthals and homo sapiens is nothing compared to the difference between humans and ogryns. Furthermore, I am not saying that intelligence would win out, only that for such a massive difference to occur, it would have to be an advantage in itself (though that still wouldn't help according to me, since I still say ten thousand years isn't nearly enough for changes that drastic).

 

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but unless I see a source directly supporting your claim, I'm going with what I see as a far more reasonable explanation - Chaos did it.


I am the latest model of a Fabricator-General
My body isn't nearly as much animal as mineral
My learnedness is legend; my accomplishments historical
For hereteks and aliens my hatred's categorical


#26 Fgdsfg

Fgdsfg

    Lrod-Iniquitsor

  • Members
  • 1,632 posts

Posted 24 July 2014 - 01:39 PM

[...]
 
And Fdgsfg, that's 100.000 years for a change in skin colour, versus significantly less to create an entire new species.

If you think it's all about skin colour and nothing else, I advise you to get into the know on genetics, but more to the point, abhumans aren't a new species, they're evolutionary variants of humans. Some or all of them are even confirmed to be able to breed with other breeds of homo sapiens.
 

The potential difference in intelligence between neanderthals and homo sapiens is nothing compared to the difference between humans and ogryns.

I'm not sure what you base this on, because ogryns aren't "that bad". Even subraces within our existing populace on Earth can have a considerable variance in average intelligence, and there's no way to tell just how smart or dumb neanderthals were. For all we know, the difference between Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals could easily have been as wide as between 40k Homo Sapiens Sapiens and Homo Sapiens Gigantus, the common Ogryn.

 

Furthermore, I am not saying that intelligence would win out, only that for such a massive difference to occur, it would have to be an advantage in itself (though that still wouldn't help according to me, since I still say ten thousand years isn't nearly enough for changes that drastic).

That's like saying that it was an advantage in itself that Homo Sapiens Sapiens (or Cro-Magnons, depending) were (if they were) less intelligent than neanderthals. Evolution doesn't work like that. It favours the traits that are advantageous to the surroundings of the group, while other traits may recede. A lot of people think that evolution is a "straight line" to being better, but it's not. Ogryns supposedly evolved on planets that in no way would've favoured creative thinking or cognitive ability in an evolutionary perspective. It would make absolute sense that they'd devolve intellectually, since the stronger, less ponderous, more violent and more simple-minded person would procreate more successfully, and may even end up killing off those that do not fit this mold, preventing them from procreating completely.
 

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but unless I see a source directly supporting your claim, I'm going with what I see as a far more reasonable explanation - Chaos did it.

Literally any entry on abhumans anywhere.

Really, like I said earlier, from an evolutionary perspective, ~40,000 years is still not much. But from an in-universe perspective, it doesn't matter, because apparently, at the very least on these planets and regions, evolution charged straight ahead, possibly with a blind fold. So it doesn't really matter what your opinion is on it, because we know that abhumans (bar those created artificially, such as the Afriel Strain) evolved on specific worlds under specific circumstances, and those circumstances are even mentioned in the abhuman backgrounds.

Edited by Fgdsfg, 24 July 2014 - 01:40 PM.

Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#27 venkelos

venkelos

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,154 posts

Posted 24 July 2014 - 02:00 PM

Evolution can be fun when you engineer scenarios that Earth can't, like heavy-gravity, toxic climates, etc. Also, some of the Abhumans, or at least their predecessors, could've been around on Earth well before the DAoT, the Strife, the Great Crusade, etc. meaning that they had more time to evolve. Lastly, the genetors of the Mechanicus aren't Chaos (well, not ALL of them), and I wouldn't put it past the AdMech to have done some "acceleration" to the evolution of something like Ogryns. They want something that can work in harsh, extraterrestrial environments, and so, like Space Marines, they take the machine that is Man, and modify it with enhancements to make Ogryns as we have them.

 

Also, comic-book logic must apply, as this is fiction. In 10,000 years, with some xenos help (the Celestials), Marvel comics mutants on Earth went from regular people to Omega-level Telepaths, human howitzers, and even more bizarre "how does your DNA apparently let you do THAT?" cheese. 40K doesn't seem to be stretching this too much worse with Orgyns, Ratlings, and what have you. The Old Ones might've modified something that infuenced some Abhuman evolution, somehow, or some ancient AdMech might've found something, and used it. Hell, Ork spores could've had an impact, since Ogryns are basically Human Orks, IMO. And yes, Chaos might've played a part, in any of many possible ways. but it is in no way more supported, or provable, at this time.


Edited by venkelos, 24 July 2014 - 02:02 PM.


#28 Andkat

Andkat

    Member

  • Members
  • 43 posts

Posted 24 July 2014 - 03:01 PM

It's somewhat difficult to believe that intelligence and creativity would actually be maladaptive in any high pressure  survival context. Mental flexibility and the ready ability to devise and improvise new tools and solutions to problems in a perilous environment are generally always going to be desirable to some extent. What's more plausible is that the growth regimes and metabolic alterations associated with the dramatic increases in muscle mass, bone density, etc. and other distinguishing properties of Ogryns were deleterious to the development of higher brain functions- the survival and reproductive utility of the former proved sufficiently greater than the latter in the relevant brutal alien environment (at least up to the point that the Ogryns reached), hence the end evolutionary result.


  • Utherix likes this




© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS