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Will Gunner be worth it on B-Wings after the B-Wing/E mod?


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#121 Marinealver

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:25 AM

The Y-Wing needs an add bomb upgrade mod.


You can always start another round if you lost the last one.


#122 iPeregrine

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:27 AM

You're only contradicting yourself at this point. So, a Y-Wing can't get the aces treatment because it's not an archetypal dogfighter (whatever that means), yet FFG can bob their head, wrinkle their nose, and *POOF*, a person who has no business even being in the cockpit of a starfighter is suddenly an expert pilot.


Sigh. Good job continuing to be a semi-literate troll, I clearly said that I'm talking about the RULES for the ships, not which random EU pilot nobody cares about they put on the card title. The interceptor pilots have RULES that fit the "ace" archetype. The a-wing pilots have rules that fit the "ace" archetype. A y-wing expansion would have a hard time fitting that archetype because the y-wing is just an inferior (but cheaper) b-wing in the "brawler" role. The only thing the y-wing does better than other ships, to fit the "best of the best" archetype, is the 360* turret that lets you minimize the importance of maneuvering.
 

Sacrifices have already been made along those lines, and the sky isn't falling yet. The notion that a Y-Wing Aces pack would somehow drive people away from the game is completely laughable.


You're right, it is laughable, just like your attempt to use that as a straw man. I never said that it would drive people away. Maybe it's hard for you to understand anything more complicated than "I WIN THE INTERNET", but it's possible for a product choice to be less than ideal even if it doesn't produce a lot of lost customers.

#123 Lagomorphia

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:23 AM

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A Y-wing ace is a pilot that excels at flying a Y-wing. If you're talking maneuverability, that's A: irrelevant and B: the non-advsensor B-wing's slower and even less maneuverable, constantly stressing itself. If you are talking advsensor B-wing then we get to talk R2 Astro Y-wing.

 

And even if Y-wings didn't fit this "ace archetype"...
 

 The ace packs are FFG's equivalent of the big boxes in Netrunner where they add a whole load of new options and stuff to one corp and one runner. We've had the TIE Interceptor Acepack, the X-wing Acepack was in the transport, and Rebel Aces is ace treatment for the A-wing and B-wing. I've little doubt they'll continue to make these. We call these packs "aces" not because they're aces necessarily but because the first pack to do it was Imperial Aces and Rebel Aces follows in the same vein.

 

You're correct in that thematically Rebel Aces is about the elite pilots flying the rebel prototypes, and the Y-wing isn't a rebel prototype, but you're fixating on it to the point where you're disregarding other information. Let's say the Y-wing isn't a good fit for a pack about rebel ace prototype pilots, and that if they swapped the Y-wing for the B-wing now the pack's theme may be somewhat damaged. But that's assuming they'd design the pack with the B-wing and then swap in the Y-wing. They do thematic design and branding after game design. If they made an A-wing and Y-wing pack and decided the Rebel Aces name didn't fit (I personally think it would fit fine) they wouldn't think "We can't use the Y-wing, it doesn't fit", they'd think "We can't use the name Rebel Aces, it doesn't fit." They name the pack after designing it.

 

This means the whole ace thing is wholly immaterial. What we're saying is that we wish they'd have designed it as an A-wing and Y-wing pack from the start, that the Y-wing is in more need of some fresh life than the B-wing. Why did they go with the B-wing? Any number of reasons: they had good ideas for B-wings then and not as many for Y-wings, they wanted to introduce their B-wing mods to the current meta and are holding back the Y-wing mods for the Wave 5 or 6 meta or the Imperial Huges, the Y-wing mods use new mechanics they intend to bring in in later waves, they considered the astromechs and torps from Rebel Transport to be a sort of "mini-Y aces" and thus decided to handle the Y-wing later, they planned Rebel Aces before XXBB became dominant and didn't know the B-wing was going to be so good, they figured the Y-wing would go better with a TIE advanced in a Yavin themed back, any number of perfectly good reasons for it. But I don't think for a second if they wanted to do the Y-wing that the Rebel Ace title would have held them back.


Edited by Lagomorphia, 11 July 2014 - 05:28 AM.


#124 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:29 AM

So I guess now that you've finally run out of even vaguely constructive things to say about this thread you're going to move on to masturbating about things from old threads? I may have been judging you unfairly, you're not just a narcissistic troll, you're a narcissistic troll with a post count obsession!


What else is there to contribute at this point? Everything you've said has been utter and obvious sophistry, and you continue to huff and puff at each and every person who disagrees with you as if you're the only person in this whole world who understands the game. We're not illiterate, iPeregrine, you're just nowhere near as smart as you think you are. I don't just mean that about the game, but your trolling antics as well. We all see you for exactly what you are, and only comment in any serious fashion to watch you make an even bigger fool of yourself. Tell me, how does it feel to sit there and seethe in your anger, knowing all the while that you're the laughing stock of this forum?

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 11 July 2014 - 05:35 AM.

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#125 Rhinoviru3

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 06:01 AM

I'd like to further stir up the Internet here by point out that Keyan Farlander is an Ace Y-Wing pilot in the canon, and was one of the survivors of the First Death Star assault.


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#126 Engine25

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 06:05 AM

I'd like to further stir up the Internet here by point out that Keyan Farlander is an Ace Y-Wing pilot in the canon, and was one of the survivors of the First Death Star assault.


Didn't he also fly a B wing at the battle of Endor?
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#127 Rhinoviru3

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 06:31 AM

 

I'd like to further stir up the Internet here by point out that Keyan Farlander is an Ace Y-Wing pilot in the canon, and was one of the survivors of the First Death Star assault.


Didn't he also fly a B wing at the battle of Endor?

 

 

Sure did! Farlander flew pretty much everything in the EU as well! :L


Edited by Rhinoviru3, 11 July 2014 - 06:31 AM.

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Rebels: 4X, 2Y, 2B, 2A, 2Hwk, 2YT, 1GR-75, 2E, 4Z, 1x YT-2400,
(See my Rebels paint thread here!)

Empire: 5x TIE/ln, 3x TIE/sa, 4x TIE/Int, 1x TIE/A, 1x F-31, 1x Lambda, 3x TIE/Pha, 1x TIE/D
(And my Imperial paint thread here!)


#128 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 08:52 AM

Maybe we've been looking at this the wrong way. B-Wing Aces? Sure, why not. But did A-Wings really need any attention? We already know how powerful they are, especially when you run them against Y-Wings. The fact that all you have to do to win as an A-Wing player is kill a single Y-Wing and kite the rest around the edge of the board until time is called clearly means that A-Wings are the superior craft. In that context, then, shouldn't the Y-Wing get some love? Without more pilots and upgrades there's no way for this poor dog of a dogfighter to ever catch up with the nimbler craft.
 
Be a good sport, FFG. Let slip the dogs of Star Wars, and give Y-Wings their time in the spotlight.


I've stayed out of this little poo-flinging extravaganza--although I have to say, if your intent was to bait iPeregrine into a(nother) fit of incoherent, COC-violating rage, then it's a job well done. But I don't see why both of you can't be right.

Given that X-wings were already getting a content refresh with the transport, and that the Falcon is still a beast and the HWK appears to be functioning more-or-less as intended, the remaining options for the Rebel mirror of the Imperial Aces sku were (in order of age) Y-wing, A-wing, and B-wing. The A-wing was also kind of a gimme, since they were obviously underused and in need of an update.

So that leaves us with B-wings and Y-wings competing for the final slot. B-wings are aggressively priced (1-2 points too cheap in comparison to an X-wing, or 1 shield too strong), but the named pilots are run very seldom (Ten is 1-2 points too expensive in comparison to Wedge, which means he's 2-4 points overpriced with respect to Blue Squadron; Ibtisam has poor synergy with all the existing system-upgrade options). So B-wings really did need a bump in the form of new unique pilots, which an Imperial-Aces-style blister is perfectly positioned to deliver.

On the other hand, Y-wings are ancient in terms of the game's lifecycle, and they suffer from a lot of the game's early design flaws: they're an ordnance platform saddled with inefficient ordnance, their PS bids are overpriced and underused, they lack EPTs, and one of the named pilots has a great ability that synergizes with almost nothing else in the game. They still have a role to play as a stubbornly durable control platform, and they're actually great there; and if you have a need for a no-action TL, Dutch is still a great addition. But that means only two pilots are ever run, and neither has any practical flexibility in their configuration.

But I can understand the argument in favor of the B-wing: the Y-wing is getting a small refresh on the side from new astromechs (e.g., Dutch + R7-T1) and new torpedoes (e.g., Gold + Flechette + Flechette), while the standard B-wing doesn't get much out of the Epic releases and due to its higher base price is less attractive as an ordnance platform. So the B-wing got a couple of new pilots and the ability to pick up some of the Rebels' recent crew (at a price, which is a nice little of balancing). That also gave FFG the ability to introduce a pair of new support crew that work well in Epic play and also synergize with the HWK. Buffing the Y-wing would have made a very narrow slice of the game, but buffing the B-wing actually has a subtle but wide effect on the game.

But with all that said... Of course the only people who know for sure what's coming up can't talk about it, but it seems silly to think that FFG's people looked at the Y-wing and said "nah, it's fine, let's go on to something else." They play the game too, I think, and they undoubtedly know how we feel about the Rebellion's poor, overlooked workhorse.

So I read through 6 pages of this (What am I doing with my life?), and iPeregrine is still arguing essentially that every box which expands upon a ship must be called, very specifically, an "Aces" box? And this is the core of his argument?


Perhaps you should try understanding instead of just reading the words? Obviously there is no requirement that every expansion have an "aces" label, as FFG very clearly demonstrated when they put a bunch of new x-wing pilots and upgrades in the transport box. But if you're going to make a rebel "aces" expansion, as FFG was pretty much committed to doing once they did the imperial one, that implies some things about the ships and pilots will be chosen for that expansion.


It wouldn't have changed anything about the set if it had been called "Rebel Heroes" instead of "Rebel Aces"; with that said, I don't have any problem with adopting "aces" as a generic label for FFG's reprints going forward.

But worth noting: you've gone far beyond your original point into the realm of just vomiting insults all over the thread. If someone can read the whole thing and come out with the idea that you're overly fixated on what FFG decides to call the sets, then maybe it's worth considering that either (a) you're not communicating as well as you think you are, or (b) you actually are overly fixated?
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#129 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 06:07 PM

"If one guy calls you a Hutt, ignore him. If a second guy calls you a Hutt, begin to wonder. If a third guy calls you a Hutt, buy a drool bucket and start stockpiling spice." Corran Horn, I, Jedi


Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 11 July 2014 - 06:45 PM.

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#130 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:31 AM

Oh man, I forgot how amazing this thread was. It was just as fun to read a second time as it was to write.


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#131 s1n

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:22 AM

Farlander + Opportunist + FCS + E mod + Gunner

 

Spendy at 41 points, but he gets to roll 4 dice at range 1. If he misses, he can attack again, roll 5 dice the second time with Opportunist, with a target lock from the first attack and FCS, and still spend the stress from Opportunist as a focus.

 

Also, I like the idea of Blue + E mod + Lando. A B-Wing that can have 2 evade tokens on top of his green dice is one determined B-Wing.



#132 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:37 AM

Farlander + Opportunist + FCS + E mod + Gunner
 
Spendy at 41 points, but he gets to roll 4 dice at range 1. If he misses, he can attack again, roll 5 dice the second time with Opportunist, with a target lock from the first attack and FCS, and still spend the stress from Opportunist as a focus.


Any plan that starts "if I miss with my 4-dice attack..." has a serious hole in it. It's why Gunner and HLC don't really get along (ditto Gunner and the Phantom): you're optimizing in two different directions simultaneously.
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#133 Vanderbeam

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:54 AM

Aces mean five or more kills, right? 

So what is the problem with having a Y-wing being an ace pilot? That just means that the Y-wing pilot is able to fly their clunky ship to the best of it's abilities while jacking up Tie Fighters. Not too far fetched in my opinion.



#134 cody campbell

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:03 AM

Scrubbed through this thread and didn't see anyone mention Fire Control System + Reconnaissance Specialist. This what I plan on doing...is this not viable?

#135 s1n

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:41 AM

 

Farlander + Opportunist + FCS + E mod + Gunner
 
Spendy at 41 points, but he gets to roll 4 dice at range 1. If he misses, he can attack again, roll 5 dice the second time with Opportunist, with a target lock from the first attack and FCS, and still spend the stress from Opportunist as a focus.


Any plan that starts "if I miss with my 4-dice attack..." has a serious hole in it. It's why Gunner and HLC don't really get along (ditto Gunner and the Phantom): you're optimizing in two different directions simultaneously.

 

You clearly haven't played me in a game. Let me rephrase my previous statement (to match what always seems to happen with me):

 

Spendy at 41 points, but he gets to roll 4 dice at range 1. When he misses, he can attack again, roll 5 dice the second time with Opportunist, with a target lock from the first attack and FCS, and still spend the stress from Opportunist as a focus.

 

I can't even count the number of times 4+ attack dice have come up with either all blanks or no damage output for me.


Edited by s1n, 22 July 2014 - 10:42 AM.


#136 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 09:05 AM

Scrubbed through this thread and didn't see anyone mention Fire Control System + Reconnaissance Specialist. This what I plan on doing...is this not viable?

 

I can't see much of a role for Recon Specialist on a B-wing, since having a focus token for defense doesn't provide much help to a ship with 1 Agility unless you're under seriously concentrated fire.

 

I can't even count the number of times 4+ attack dice have come up with either all blanks or no damage output for me.

 

 

Fair enough; I've had games like that, too. It's just that--at least, when I'm not at at the table watching my Fett miss that stupid HWK for the fifth bloody time in a row--5 points always seems way too expensive for an insurance policy against an event I'm trying to avoid.



#137 Chris R

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 10:09 AM

Honestly, they just need to give them a turret that can deal damage and doesn't suck. Blaster Turret is a miserable weapon. A stress cannon would be pretty epic. Weapon 2. If it scores at least one hit also stress the opponent. Range 2-3.
But whatever it is, 5 points or so should be the upper limit. The Hawk and Y-Wing don't have the bulk to back up 12 points of upgrades like the Outrider does.


If you have a ship that can take a turret or a cannon and has a crew slot you can give it a tactician and start popping out stress tokens with all your range 2 attacks regardless of whether the attack hits or not. You take a HWK with an Ion turret and a tactician or a B-wing with an ion cannon and tactician with the new upgrade and it is going to piss someone off. Ion tokens force the target to do a white 1 straight maneuver so they can't do a green maneuver to lose the stress. So they will still be stressed the next turn so you can shoot again with the ion and give them a second stress and maybe even another ion. Whether you hit or miss they now have at least 2 stress and maybe another ion. Third round even if they don't have another ion they can't take actions like barrel roll or boost to try and evade your next ion shot nor can they K-turn due to the stress. At best they can try a green maneuver to get rid of one stress, but they still have the second one remaining. This means they can try to flee your attack, but will be quite limited in their options for doing so, and if you are lucky you can just keep piling the stress on them or at least bog them down so much that the ship can't do much other than frantically try to flee.

#138 Engine25

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 10:13 AM

 

Honestly, they just need to give them a turret that can deal damage and doesn't suck. Blaster Turret is a miserable weapon. A stress cannon would be pretty epic. Weapon 2. If it scores at least one hit also stress the opponent. Range 2-3.
But whatever it is, 5 points or so should be the upper limit. The Hawk and Y-Wing don't have the bulk to back up 12 points of upgrades like the Outrider does.


If you have a ship that can take a turret or a cannon and has a crew slot you can give it a tactician and start popping out stress tokens with all your range 2 attacks regardless of whether the attack hits or not. You take a HWK with an Ion turret and a tactician or a B-wing with an ion cannon and tactician with the new upgrade and it is going to piss someone off. Ion tokens force the target to do a white 1 straight maneuver so they can't do a green maneuver to lose the stress. So they will still be stressed the next turn so you can shoot again with the ion and give them a second stress and maybe even another ion. Whether you hit or miss they now have at least 2 stress and maybe another ion. Third round even if they don't have another ion they can't take actions like barrel roll or boost to try and evade your next ion shot nor can they K-turn due to the stress. At best they can try a green maneuver to get rid of one stress, but they still have the second one remaining. This means they can try to flee your attack, but will be quite limited in their options for doing so, and if you are lucky you can just keep piling the stress on them or at least bog them down so much that the ship can't do much other than frantically try to flee.

 

 

Dealing a stress and an Ion can definitely be crippling, but keep in mind Tactician is firing arc only.  You can only do it to a ship in front of you, and if you intend to do it repeatedly, you can easily be overwhelmed by his other ships attacking from behind, particularly if they stay at range so you can't shoot them for just the ion token instead.


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