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Is there any reason to take Bolter Shells over Hellfire Rounds?


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#1 Mikmaxs

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:58 PM

When using a Boltgun or Bolt Pistol, at least. It's only about a 11% cost difference, there are zero penalties, and against lightly armed opponents you get a massive damage increase. Am I missing something here?

#2 Cogniczar

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:03 PM

mechanically, probably no reason not to. Effectively - good luck routinely finding enough to use effectively in Dark Heresy.



#3 Mikmaxs

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:25 PM

Bolter Rounds and Hellfire Rounds have the sane rarity, according to the Rulebook... They're both 'Rare.' I shouldn't have any more difficulty than I would finding normal ammo.

#4 Gregorius21778

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:28 AM

Expect this to be a balancing issue. Welcome to the first Edition of DH.


 



#5 Simsum

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:13 AM

Bolter Rounds and Hellfire Rounds have the sane rarity, according to the Rulebook... They're both 'Rare.' I shouldn't have any more difficulty than I would finding normal ammo.

 

In the fluff Hellfire rounds are exceedingly rare, much more so than standard rounds. Your GM should probably slap a -50 or -60 Availability Modifier on it. But there's no particular reason a favoured Acolyte couldn't have access to a functionally infinite amount of it via their Inquisitor.

 

Mind, though, that if you're packing a Bolt weapon of whatever kind, people are going to assume you're either a noble or a high ranking member of the Adeptus Terra. And if you're obvious with the Hellfire ammo, just about anyone who knows what it is will assume you're the Inquisition.



#6 Cogniczar

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:25 AM

Bolter Rounds and Hellfire Rounds have the sane rarity, according to the Rulebook... They're both 'Rare.' I shouldn't have any more difficulty than I would finding normal ammo.

 

Except, Hellfire rounds were developed for Astartes weapons in 741.M41 on the totally opposite side of the galaxy in response to the tyranids threat in Segmentum Ultima. The paltry century and a half to the game's timeline wouldn't be enough to actually find any meaningful amount of them in the Calixis Sector.


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#7 segara82

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:28 AM

If you are in a Hive does not naturally mean that they produce all kinds of weapons and ammo. And just because they can manufacture high technology does not mean they can produce the Bolter ammo.

For example while pleasure worlds are capable of high quality/technology but those are rarely weapons or ammo. A hunting reserve will offer rifles and maybe bolters for the hunt, but no ammo that will set your target ablaze or turn it into unidentifiable goo.

 

Not quite the same setting: My EotE group was meeting a contact of the ISB on Naboo. While Naboo offers such things as high quality energy converters, energy cells, plasma technology, and even a (royal) company that produces fighters you will have a hard time finding things like a ceramite armour. It is a tourist hotspot, a 'pleasure world' ... overpriced drinks and coffees, souveniers, clone-trooper-plushies and such yes.

But arms and armour? Wrong planet.


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#8 pearldrum1

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:51 AM

The analogy between Star Wars and 40k just made my teeth hurt.

 

Don't get me wrong, it worked, but it felt like explaining the Holocaust to a five year old using care bear toys.


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#9 Jargal

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:27 AM

Wait, wait... Which DH Rulebook did you find Hellfire rounds with "11% cost difference"??? They are described only in DW (Req 25) and BC (Very Rare)... Maybe you confuse them with Inferno shells?


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#10 Fgdsfg

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 04:00 AM

Bolter Rounds and Hellfire Rounds have the sane rarity, according to the Rulebook... They're both 'Rare.' I shouldn't have any more difficulty than I would finding normal ammo.

Where are Hellfire Rounds listed in Dark Heresy? I usually use the Warhammer 40k Roleplay Armory excel sheet to navigate the labyrinthine mass of 40k equipment, and I can't find it listed there. I can only find Hellfire Rounds for:

Deathwatch (Ignores Natural Armor, inflicts RF on 9 and 10. Gain tearing. With Heavy Bolter, RoF changes to S/-/- and gains Blast (3). Add one additional power of magnitude damage on hordes) which lists no Availability because Deathwatch does not use the same Availability system.

Black Crusade (Gains Toxic (3) and inflicts Zealous Hatred on 9 or 10. When used in a Heavy Bolter, RoF becomes S/-/- and adds Blast (3). Deals 1 additional Mag damage to a Horde) in which it's listed as Very Rare.

There's also the Exitus Hellfire Rounds, which are Near Unique and for Exitus Weapons, from Dark Heresy Ascension, and clearly don't apply to this argument.

So I'm just curious where Hellfire Bolter Rounds are listed in Dark Heresy and where it's listed as Rare.

Either way, I'm with Cogniczar. There's no reason any meaningful amount of Hellfire Bolter Rounds would've found their way to the Calixis Sector. If memory serves, the entire WH40kRP line (pre-DH2) takes place 810-830m41. It varies a bit, but I think it's 814m41 when Dark Heresy is assumed to "start".


Edit:

Wait, wait... Which DH Rulebook did you find Hellfire rounds with "11% cost difference"??? They are described only in DW (Req 25) and BC (Very Rare)... Maybe you confuse them with Inferno shells?

Fuc'n ninja'd. You wrote that as I was writing mine.

If OP has confused it with Inferno Shells, that's a completely different topic. Inferno Shells are indeed of Rare availability and exists in Bolt form, and is a straight-up upgrade of regular Bolter Bolts. And in cost, regular Bolts are 16/each, while Inferno Shells are 18/each.

This may become quite a lot, when you are buying a lot of Inferno Shell Bolts, but imo, not enough to pass on the Inferno Bolts. It is, however, inappropriate that these would exists in anywhere near the same quantities of regular Bolt Shells, which are already supposed to be quite limited in "mortal" availability.


Edited by Fgdsfg, 10 July 2014 - 04:05 AM.

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#11 Mikmaxs

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 04:10 AM

I'm sorry, yes, I meant inferno bolts. I don't know how I got those mixed up.

Also, if it's relevant, I'd only be buying enough to keep one Bolt Pistol going, and even the it'd only be used rarely in dire situations.

Edited by Mikmaxs, 10 July 2014 - 04:12 AM.


#12 Jargal

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 05:21 AM

I'm sorry, yes, I meant inferno bolts. I don't know how I got those mixed up.

 

Ok, then I can point a situation when you might want regular bolts: a lot of flammable things around. After all, you can't serve the Emperor if you die in a fire...

 

Fuc'n ninja'd. You wrote that as I was writing mine.

 

You typed it too long :D



#13 segara82

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 02:14 AM

The analogy between Star Wars and 40k just made my teeth hurt.

 

Don't get me wrong, it worked, but it felt like explaining the Holocaust to a five year old using care bear toys.

 

Sorry, but so far my DH group has not been to a pleasure world, otherwise i would have talked about that.

The EotE bit just happened last friday.


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#14 Tenebrae

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:43 AM

I'm sorry, yes, I meant inferno bolts. I don't know how I got those mixed up.

... how nice.

"Inferno Bolts" sent me straight to Tome of Fate for BC, but it turns out those a "Tzeentchian Inferno Bolts" - something completely different :rolleyes:



#15 Fgdsfg

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 06:17 AM

Depending on how your GM rolls, your group plays and where the majority of missions take place, there can be very good reasons to not use Inferno Bolts. From a min/max-perspective, yes, Inferno Shells are easily more powerful than regular bolts, but there are likely a wide range of situations where you might not want to use Inferno Bolts.

Fire is cool, but it's not a very nice playmate.

I'm sorry, yes, I meant inferno bolts. I don't know how I got those mixed up.

... how nice.
"Inferno Bolts" sent me straight to Tome of Fate for BC, but it turns out those a "Tzeentchian Inferno Bolts" - something completely different :rolleyes:

 
They are called Inferno Shells. They are usable for shotguns and bolt weapons, and the bolt variant should rightly be called Inferno Bolts, even though it becomes confusing when skimming through tables.

Edited by Fgdsfg, 11 July 2014 - 06:19 AM.

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#16 Tenebrae

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 08:27 AM

 and the bolt variant should rightly be called Inferno Bolts, even though it becomes confusing when skimming through tables.

Ever so slightly.



#17 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 01:56 PM

Expanding on what Fgdsfg said, Inferno Bolts cause a whole lot more collateral damage than regular bolt rounds. If a firefight breaks out in the restricted section of some lore archive, a stray bolt round will at worst destroy a book or two. An inferno bolt will burn the whole place to the ground. In any place where you don't want to be setting fires, inferno bolts become a liability.


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#18 Fgdsfg

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 02:30 PM

Expanding on what Fgdsfg said, Inferno Bolts cause a whole lot more collateral damage than regular bolt rounds. If a firefight breaks out in the restricted section of some lore archive, a stray bolt round will at worst destroy a book or two. An inferno bolt will burn the whole place to the ground. In any place where you don't want to be setting fires, inferno bolts become a liability.


Yeah, I think this is one of those situations where GM input is really important, and you can't trust the numbers. Inferno Bolts have the potential to create a hive-wide fire if aimed poorly, burn down a forest, eat up oxygen reserves aboard a ship, set fire to a whole archive or light a large beacon in the night saying "We are here".

Conversely, I can also see a lot of situations where you'll definitely want Inferno Rounds, much for those same exact reasons. When attacking a cult stronghold, bring the fire and the pain. When raiding an enemy ship, eat up as much of that oxygen as you can. When facing that mechanical horror, see if you can't set fire to all those exposed wires in it's abdomen.

I like fire.
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Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.





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