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Is the Alliance truly 'good guys'?


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#81 Aluminium Falcon

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:20 PM

Also any of the standard "fare" that comes with resistance forces: killing "collaborators" without trial, assassinations of high ranking officers and personnel (also without trial), etc. torture of Imperial personnel, etc.  It's impossible to believe that such things did not occur.

(Bold mine)

 

One must be wary when applying "real world" concepts beyond symbolism and metaphor.  Not saying you can't do it, it is just that they cease to be foregone conclusions in the same sense.

"Standard 'fare'" applies very differently.

 

It is not only possible, it is probable that such morally detestable acts did not occur in canon* as the whole system runs on GL's moral whims (with mixed results).  Given the evidence,  it is not only possible that the Galactic Empire was thwarted with very few (if any compromises) if pressed, GL would probably spin some heroic fluff about how they managed it.

 

Look no further than "Greedo shot first" to see the lengths he will go to portray even the resident "bad boy hero" in the best possible light.  Even if you suspect that GL is trolling us a bit with it all, he still officially holds that line and would be apt to do so with the Rebels as a whole.

 

*As a side note, I am all for RPG stories that portray a grimmer Rebellion.



#82 HappyDaze

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:32 PM

 

Also any of the standard "fare" that comes with resistance forces: killing "collaborators" without trial, assassinations of high ranking officers and personnel (also without trial), etc. torture of Imperial personnel, etc.  It's impossible to believe that such things did not occur.

(Bold mine)

 

One must be wary when applying "real world" concepts beyond symbolism and metaphor.  Not saying you can't do it, it is just that they cease to be foregone conclusions in the same sense.

"Standard 'fare'" applies very differently.

 

It is not only possible, it is probable that such morally detestable acts did not occur in canon* as the whole system runs on GL's moral whims (with mixed results).  Given the evidence,  it is not only possible that the Galactic Empire was thwarted with very few (if any compromises) if pressed, GL would probably spin some heroic fluff about how they managed it.

 

Look no further than "Greedo shot first" to see the lengths he will go to portray even the resident "bad boy hero" in the best possible light.  Even if you suspect that GL is trolling us a bit with it all, he still officially holds that line and would be apt to do so with the Rebels as a whole.

 

*As a side note, I am all for RPG stories that portray a grimmer Rebellion.

 

Read the descriptions of SpecForce Infiltrators. They are specifically recruited for their hatred of the Empire. I can't imagine that these guys play nice at all.


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#83 Aluminium Falcon

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:11 PM

Read the descriptions of SpecForce Infiltrators. They are specifically recruited for their hatred of the Empire. I can't imagine that these guys play nice at all.

quiteabit_zps34334e56.jpg

"I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit."

 

Lacking a canon source of the Rebellion "behaving badly", all we have is our imaginations...  Which I do encourage we use in our games.

 

Part of the amusement in this line of debate (for me) is that a number of contributors are putting forth so incredibly fun ideas... in some cases, very creative ideas...  but rather than take a certain measure of credit, some are simply looking for validation that it has always been that way.


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#84 RogueCorona

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:21 PM

A KDY may not have been providing ships exclusively to the Empire but they were a major source of Imperial warships and thus a legitimate military target for the Empire's enemies. That would be like a small, aircraft equipped guerrilla force at war with the USA raiding a Lockheed Martin factory and stealing fighters than Lockheed complaining because they sell aircraft to groups other than the US Military, and would sell aircraft to the guerrillas if they could afford them. Honestly I could see the company doing that realistically but the complaint does not make the raid an evil act.



#85 PartTimeGamer93

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 12:02 AM

My Players are in the midst of an adventure right now, which involves an extremely terroristic Rebel cell. Roadside bombs, marketplace bombs, firefights in crowds, hiding in civilian homes, etcetera. Currently, the Players are agonizing over what to do, because this cell is producing unreal results in term of public dissatisfaction with the Imperial occupation, and to someone who can't actually see what's going on, the cell seems like a real asset.

It's very...Afghanistan-like.

 

I'm really curious to see what they finally decide on; this is their first real moral situation.


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#86 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 05:07 AM

 

Just as a US soldier given an illegal order isn't just able to refuse it... he's legally obliged to refuse it.

 

 

Applies to British soldiers, sailors and airmen, too.


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#87 Maelora

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:21 AM

Yeah, sorry, SS, I actually thought of you as soon as I wrote that!

 

I also read extensively about the 'rules of engagement' during the 'Black Hawk Down' era in Somalia, and was astonished at the restraint the soldiers showed under such extreme provocation.

 

That's how I see the Alliance. Sure, there might be some bad eggs, even bad units (there is a notorious one in our game) but an effort is made to fight the GCW under a moral 'rules of engagement'. 


Edited by Maelora, 23 July 2014 - 06:27 AM.

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#88 Maelora

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 12:52 PM

My Players are in the midst of an adventure right now, which involves an extremely terroristic Rebel cell. Roadside bombs, marketplace bombs, firefights in crowds, hiding in civilian homes, etcetera. Currently, the Players are agonizing over what to do, because this cell is producing unreal results in term of public dissatisfaction with the Imperial occupation, and to someone who can't actually see what's going on, the cell seems like a real asset.
It's very...Afghanistan-like.

 

George Lucas needed a clear demarcation of 'good' and 'evil' for his film, extending this even to the visuals as 2P51 pointed out.  But a role-playing game allows us to explore more nuances, I think, to introduce shades of grey.   Our Alliance is still essentially the good guys, trying to fight a moral war, and the Empire is made up of several factions, most of which are equally nasty. But there should always be exceptions. 

 

Our AoR campaign contains the so-called 'Bad Company', who are another SpecOps cell that's kind of gone rogue.  They are essentially terrorists, caring nothing about collateral damage or rules of engagement. They were responsible for killing Monobrow Kid a decade or so back, so that gives them some goodwill with the top brass as well as the rank-and-file.  A lot of them have tragic pasts - they have two entry conditions: to join, you need to have lost someone you loved to the Empire, and you have to personally murder an Imperial (in cold blood, not cleanly in battle). 

 

The Alliance leaders officially condemn them, but it's hard to control SpecOps groups, and privately, they realise how successful they have been in the field, albeit at the cost of losing public opinion and the moral high ground the Alliance aspires to. Some of the Alliance members quietly consider them heroes, and secretly wish they could adopt these tactics too. 

 

I intended them as a dark mirror to the PCs, a cautionary tale of what happens when you try to fight evil using its own methods.  But already, some of the PCs are sympathizing... 


Edited by Maelora, 23 July 2014 - 12:52 PM.

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#89 RogueCorona

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 03:25 PM

Monobrow Kid?



#90 Maelora

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:18 PM

Yeah, Mutant Eyebrow Boy in Eff-You, or whatever his name is.

 

I think I had Bad Company keep his monobrow as a trophy :)

 

Anyway,  it gave them a certain leeway with the top brass, and made them heroes of a sort among the rank and file.  It made their later excesses somewhat forgivable, in some people's eyes.


Edited by Maelora, 23 July 2014 - 04:19 PM.

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#91 kaosoe

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:00 PM

Yeah, Mutant Eyebrow Boy in Eff-You, or whatever his name is.

 

I think I had Bad Company keep his monobrow as a trophy :)

 

Anyway,  it gave them a certain leeway with the top brass, and made them heroes of a sort among the rank and file.  It made their later excesses somewhat forgivable, in some people's eyes.

 

Now I feel bad for Sam Witwer, not because you dislike the game that he voice acted in, but his eyebrow(s) will be the only thing you will remember him for. ;)

 

Sam_Witwer.jpg

 

I'm kidding, really.


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#92 Maelora

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 09:27 PM

Aw, he's better -looking in real-life than the game.

 

That hair's still gotta go, though :)

 

And no, it's not personal.

 

Wil Wheaton seems like a cool guy in real life, after all!


Edited by Maelora, 23 July 2014 - 09:28 PM.

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#93 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:31 AM

Yeah, Mutant Eyebrow Boy in Eff-You, or whatever his name is.

 

 

Character was Starkiller, or Galen Merik/Merrik/Marik (I forget which).

 

I liked the character and the story; I just hated the OTTness of the game. Still, I, at least, am happy for its inclusion in the rulebook fluff, more so because it was only vaguely referenced rather than given excessive detail. Now I can include it in my campaigns albeit with more believable action and risk.


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