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Church of Sigmar ability vs Troll Vomit


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#1 Srgnt Kurgan

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 10:04 PM

So I have a question from the Core set:

 

So Empire's Church of Sigmar says that "opponents can't target your units with card effects unless they pay additional 1 resource per effect."

 

So if I play orks and have Troll Vomit that states: Play during your turn: Action: "Destroy all units in play", since it's a "card effect" that targets all units, does this mean I have to pay 1 resource to destroy each of the Empire's units in play? Say Empire has 5 units, will this cost 5 extra resources? If I only have say 3 resources left after I cast Troll vomit, can I kill 3 out of those 5 units in that case? And who would choose which units to kill- me, or the opponent?

 

 

 

 

 



#2 JudJackalTom

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:02 PM

I guess if you play a card which generates a multiple effect you can choose the targets one by one. So I would say that you can choose the targets what you wouldn't like to pay for. Basically you can choose. Have you checked in the FAQ yet?

Edited by JudJackalTom, 06 July 2014 - 02:03 PM.


#3 Maik

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 03:27 PM

So I have a question from the Core set:

 

So Empire's Church of Sigmar says that "opponents can't target your units with card effects unless they pay additional 1 resource per effect."

 

So if I play orks and have Troll Vomit that states: Play during your turn: Action: "Destroy all units in play", since it's a "card effect" that targets all units, does this mean I have to pay 1 resource to destroy each of the Empire's units in play? Say Empire has 5 units, will this cost 5 extra resources? If I only have say 3 resources left after I cast Troll vomit, can I kill 3 out of those 5 units in that case? And who would choose which units to kill- me, or the opponent?

Church of Sigmar only works against effects that target your units, so unless the effect explicitely contains the word 'target', the Church won't do anything. In your example, Troll Vomit will not cost any extra resources.



#4 Srgnt Kurgan

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 03:33 PM

Thanks Maik.

 

And I checked this webiste here:

 

http://www.fantasyfl...?eidm=85&esem=4

 

The "FAQ and Errata" link on that page had some basic explanations for the game, but the Church of Sigmar explanation was not really clear.

 

This game does get tricky with some specific cards/words. I'm hoping I'm not trolling the site, I'm a new player to this but I do my research a bit before asking questions about specific cards. Going to stick to the core set only for a while until I get the hang of it. Other than that Church card, the rest of the cards seems pretty straight forward. There's one more card that was kind of tricky, but I've found the answer in the "FAQ and Errata" link.

 

If there is a better FAQ page anywhere, pls post the link below and I"ll check it out. Thanks!



#5 JudJackalTom

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 02:49 AM

 

So I have a question from the Core set:

 

So Empire's Church of Sigmar says that "opponents can't target your units with card effects unless they pay additional 1 resource per effect."

 

So if I play orks and have Troll Vomit that states: Play during your turn: Action: "Destroy all units in play", since it's a "card effect" that targets all units, does this mean I have to pay 1 resource to destroy each of the Empire's units in play? Say Empire has 5 units, will this cost 5 extra resources? If I only have say 3 resources left after I cast Troll vomit, can I kill 3 out of those 5 units in that case? And who would choose which units to kill- me, or the opponent?

Church of Sigmar only works against effects that target your units, so unless the effect explicitely contains the word 'target', the Church won't do anything. In your example, Troll Vomit will not cost any extra resources.

 

 

Actually I am not sure in your answer. Not regarding Troll Vomit. Your answer seems ok if do not look at the wording of Troll Vomit as an effect ("Play during your turn. Action: Destroy all units in play."). But not all the cards wording use "target" which has got an effect which targeting your units. For Example: Toxic Hidra or many of the DE cards ("Action: When this unit enters play, each unit in any corresponding zone gets -2 hit points until the end of the turn."). Or the Curch of Sigmar is effective only against cards which wording is "target" that is s....



#6 BlackOrc

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 09:18 AM

Thanks Maik.

 

And I checked this webiste here:

 

http://www.fantasyfl...?eidm=85&esem=4

 

The "FAQ and Errata" link on that page had some basic explanations for the game, but the Church of Sigmar explanation was not really clear.

 Hi Srgnt!

 

That very FAQ describes a lot about TARGETING in a whole section on it.

And it just gives the Troll Vomit as an example. Same conclusion as Maik.

 

 

Target (v1.3)

Targeting is checked when the card is played and again when the card effect resolves. A card effect is considered to be targeting as long as it says “target” in the card text.

For example: Troll Vomit (CS 80) reads “Action: Destroy all units in play.” This effect does not target the units it destroys, so a card like King Kazador (CS 7) which reads “Opponents cannot target this unit with card effects unless they pay an additional 3 resources per effect” would not interact with Troll Vomit.



#7 JudJackalTom

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 04:40 AM

 

Thanks Maik.

 

And I checked this webiste here:

 

http://www.fantasyfl...?eidm=85&esem=4

 

The "FAQ and Errata" link on that page had some basic explanations for the game, but the Church of Sigmar explanation was not really clear.

 Hi Srgnt!

 

That very FAQ describes a lot about TARGETING in a whole section on it.

And it just gives the Troll Vomit as an example. Same conclusion as Maik.

 

 

Target (v1.3)

Targeting is checked when the card is played and again when the card effect resolves. A card effect is considered to be targeting as long as it says “target” in the card text.

For example: Troll Vomit (CS 80) reads “Action: Destroy all units in play.” This effect does not target the units it destroys, so a card like King Kazador (CS 7) which reads “Opponents cannot target this unit with card effects unless they pay an additional 3 resources per effect” would not interact with Troll Vomit.

 

 

I am not saying you are wrong regarding Troll Vomit or the FAQ is wrong. It is just innacurate. The major difference between the Troll Vomit and the "target" wording in any "Action" cards that the destroy word does not reflect any effect. It makes common sense. Destroy is an immediate step like put in game or play or declare. Those are not effects so you cannot block with cards which are blocking effects. But just to clarify, many of the DE cards create effects targeting your cards without using the wording "target" because they have got a mass effect so not necessary to use wording like "target all unit in any corresponding zone....". For example Toxic hydra. What about that one?



#8 Mallumo

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 05:49 AM

An effect targets when it uses the word "target", and it doesn't when it doesn't, simple as that. That an effect affects cards doesn't mean it automatically targets them. In general, effects that require you to choose a particular card or a particular number of cards target, while effects that affect all cards of a certain type, or in a certain zone, or all cards in play, don't.

 

It might not make sense to you at first glance, but there is a logic behind it, and with any game like this, you have to make concessions and compromises and agree on certain expressions because text space on the cards is limited and you need terms and clauses that always mean the same, you can't put individual explanations on each card.



#9 JudJackalTom

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 09:32 AM

An effect targets when it uses the word "target", and it doesn't when it doesn't, simple as that. That an effect affects cards doesn't mean it automatically targets them. In general, effects that require you to choose a particular card or a particular number of cards target, while effects that affect all cards of a certain type, or in a certain zone, or all cards in play, don't.

 

It might not make sense to you at first glance, but there is a logic behind it, and with any game like this, you have to make concessions and compromises and agree on certain expressions because text space on the cards is limited and you need terms and clauses that always mean the same, you can't put individual explanations on each card.

 

Yep. We are talking about the same thing. They shouldn't write there is there "targeting" because of limited space, because it is obviously if you have got an action to trigger (not constant effect) which will target cards with the created effects that is still targeting the automatically determind cards. :)


Edited by JudJackalTom, 11 July 2014 - 02:38 AM.


#10 BlackOrc

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 06:42 AM

They shouldn't write there is there "targeting" because of limited space, because it is obviously if you have got an action to trigger (not constant effect) which will target cards with the created effects that is still targeting the automatically determind cards.

 

"A card effect is considered to be targeting as long as it says “target” in the card text." (from FAQ)

 

So if "targeting" is not written, then it is not because of limited space, but because they dont want that card effect to be considered targeting. Just like Troll Vomit. It is on purpose when they dont put "targeting" in the text. And the purpose is rule-wise, not space saving-wise.



#11 JudJackalTom

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 07:34 AM

 

They shouldn't write there is there "targeting" because of limited space, because it is obviously if you have got an action to trigger (not constant effect) which will target cards with the created effects that is still targeting the automatically determind cards.

 

"A card effect is considered to be targeting as long as it says “target” in the card text." (from FAQ)

 

So if "targeting" is not written, then it is not because of limited space, but because they dont want that card effect to be considered targeting. Just like Troll Vomit. It is on purpose when they dont put "targeting" in the text. And the purpose is rule-wise, not space saving-wise.

 

 

Sorry BlackOrc. We changed the "target" of the topic regarding Troll Vomit. :) Troll Vomit is ok. It is a question about the understanding of the wording of not targeting but to target cards with effects without using the target wording itself. Like I said Toxic Hydra degrees the HP of the opponents' units in any corresponding battlefield. We can agree it is an effect. Does not use the target wording but it targets cards. So Church of Sigmar or King Kazador works against this kind of effects. My personal opinion.


Edited by JudJackalTom, 11 July 2014 - 07:35 AM.


#12 BlackOrc

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 08:35 AM

Ah, missed that Troll Vomit shouldnt be targeted anymore, hehe.

But my answer was general, not specific, same stands for the Hydra.

Toxic Hydra reads: Action: When this unit enters play, each unit in any corresponding zone gets -2 hit points until the end of the turn.

If intention was that the Hydra targets, we would see some text like this: Action: When this unit enters play, target each unit in any corresponding zone. Targeted units get -2 hit points each until the end of the turn.

 

The keyword is in your personal opinion: "Does not use the target wording but it targets cards." If it does not use it, it is not targeting in game terms. Of course, in general talk, I would also use the expression "target" to describe what the Hydra does. But it doesnt matter. The text matters.

 

It is just not the same: "assign 1 damage to any unit in opponents battlefield" or "assign 1 damage to one target unit in opponents battlefield". In both case you choose a unit. But in the latter case you cannot choose a unit which cannot be targeted. In common language the chosen unit will be the target of the card also in the first case. But game-wise the cannot-be-targeted effect triggers in the second case and does not trigger in the first case.






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