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How to make a character tougher?


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#1 Mikmaxs

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 02:24 PM

I GM, but this question is mainly for my character when not GMing.
What can you do to make your character harder to kill? Aside from buying armor, taking that talent which gives you an extra reaction (Or is it just an extra parry?) and pouring experience into Toughness and extra wounds.
In other words, aside from the obvious. I know taking cover is important, but the guy GMing our current mission has had three Melee bosses in a row and I don't expect this to change soon...
Any secrets or tips that I haven't noticed.

#2 ThenDoctor

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 03:27 PM

Fight smarter not harder, cover isn't as important as having the proper tools for the fight. Does he allow you a chance to set up the environment before your confrontation? If so set traps. If not then examine the battlefield. There can be anything that can make tests more difficult for your enemies.

 

As for mechanically tougher, replacing limbs with cybernetics add +2, but critical damage of a certain level shuts the limb down. Certain drugs increase toughness.

 

Are they all similar bosses in nature, or merely ones that use melee attacks?


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#3 doomande

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 03:42 PM

How to make a character survive longer, know some of the bigger dangers in the system and what there can counter them.

 

Are you up against someone melee? Well spray them with some suppressing fire or find one of the lovely weapons with the snare effect. I promise you that the GM are going to think twice after the first time you snare his low Agility high Toughness out in the middle of the floor. Do also remember that there are something called "delayed action" it meaning that you may act WHENEVER YOU WANT, also in the bad guy turns when he charges you and now are standing 3 feet ahead of you.

 

Being stunned is a ***** as well, so do always remember to have at least one guy that have a pack of stimm with him. Beside helping you when you else would have been stunned will it also stop blood loss and all other bad effects of a critical hit, something that have saved the life and limbs of a pair of my players under our campaign.

 

Beside that, plan plan plan ahead. Know which person in the group that have what role, who that needs cover fire when and where. Make sure that all are spread out with what they can and have, but that there also are some overlaying themes coming again and again.

 

Beside that do I not have any advices... That is beside never using all of your thrones up, do always leave some back for medical expenses, bribes to people that can get you away, and to be used as a distraction in the very end if needed.

 

PS, Trying to find something that can help you against fire can be a lifesaver again. It is not in any of the core books, but having a fire blanket/cape to throw over your big brute without the willpower to stand still or agility to save his own butt are important.


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#4 ThenDoctor

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 04:05 PM

 

Being stunned is a ***** as well, so do always remember to have at least one guy that have a pack of stimm with him.

Remember that spending a fate point allows you to IMMEDIATELY recover from being stunned. Frankly on top of that remember what your fate points can do. Just put it on a note card and keep it on you.

 

My players never remember unless I remind them. Spent ones come back every session for a reason.


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#5 Mikmaxs

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 04:57 PM

ThenDoctor: Our last three fights have been against a trio of middle eastern Scimitar-weilding mutants, a couple giant lizard monsters, and some kind of unbeatable angelic being who's ass we kicked until the GM had him fly away. (That last one was incredibly annoying.)
Where are the rules for damage against Cybernetics? I thought it was just the effects listed under the limb or augment itself?

#6 Braddoc

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 07:18 PM

Keep in mind that delay action 'cost' a half action, so you can act whenever in the turn, but you'll be 'down' to half action only.

 

Therefore, have quickdraw and a shotgun, always a fun time when you're point blank.


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#7 ThenDoctor

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 08:11 PM

They're in the main description of augmentation in the corebook, just read through that section again and you should see. Sounds like you should use some incindiary ammo.

 

As for the GM keeping a creature alive even though you are likely killing it three times over that can be a major kick in the teeth. I was once playing a Star Wars RPG and killed a boss enemy three times (was told as much), but wasn't allowed the kill because said GM wanted another player to kill the enemy for the story's sake.

 

Seems like your GM might need a player driven change of direction, try and investigate what this angelic creature was. Was it a Saint? A daemonic manifestation? A daemonhost created in a mockery of the Imperial image? This bears investigating. Try and get the other players on track as well and just shy away from that sort of thing. If the GM doesn't change then try and speak with him about it.

 

If that doesn't resolve things make a telekine based psyker take psykic sword, work your way into the Templar Calyx class and destroy everything in your path. That or quit.


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#8 Mikmaxs

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 08:37 PM

The point of the boss-fight was that he (the boss) was 'testing' us (Though we all have no idea who or what he is,) and our GM was essentially going to reward us with a power-up potion that'll last until it's convenient for the mission, getting one potion per ten points of damage we caused.
His attacks dealt 18+ damage, but our GM capped it so that he would only ever cause as many wounds as we had remaining. (Taking us to 0.) He knocked down one player...
And then I got a lucky stun, and we wailed on him for a full round. He had combined Toughness and Armor of 11, but we still caused 58 wounds. Then, two rounds were up (The predetermined length of the fight) and so he jumped onto a pillar that we couldn't reach, blinded the team (Except me who had good quality Photo Contacts in,) said something about us being capable, and then he flew away after giving us 5 potions.And the GM kept reminding us that we really had no chance and he could have kicked our asses if he had wanted.

The game is also set up so that we actually can't investigate him, since we have about a day and a half to finish an important mission before we have to leave for a rendevous.

I'd speak to him about it, but last time I tried to criticize things went... Poorly. He's not a bad GM, his characters are well acted and his plots are good, but the combat scenes have been fairly blegh, he tends to coddle players so that they can't fail or shake things up, he doesn't take criticism well, and he very, very obviously plays lots of JRPGs and styles his missions after that. (Hence the no-win boss, as well as a couple other of his GMing choices.)

#9 ThenDoctor

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 08:46 PM

Potions? Enemies testing you? Unreachable Pillars? Getting only to 0 wounds? What are you playing DnD?

 

If I was given a potion by an angelic being that I wasn't sure was a saint I'd dump it in the dirt and shoot the first person that drank it. It's obviously a warp concoction bent on twisting the pure human design.

 

This is Dark Heresy, people die in the 41st millenium. That's what Fate Points are for.

 

Also not having time to investigate is ridiculous, that's a good 2/3 of the game itself. It's about figuring out what's going on and stopping it, and hopefully not dying in the process.

 

I'm not sure what I'd do in your situation, I'd sit him down and explain I wasn't happy. That is if you aren't happy you might be fine. Ask him to let you guys actually participate in combat, because it sounds like he just wants to tell you what will happen rather than give you the chance to interfere. That's an entirely different issue however and not what you originally wanted to speak about.


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#10 Mikmaxs

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 11:16 PM

Technically they're needles you inject yourself with.
As an Arbite and the only Emperor-fearing member in our team, (We have a Tech Priest but he just cares about Tech Heresy,) I snatched up all the injectors before anyone could use them. I know our GM wants us to take them so I won't destroy them, but I'm going to wait until a plot convenience comes along which lets me test them or scan for chaotic taint. I want to just smash them all, but that'll piss off the GM and a couple of our players.

Last time I sat down and talked with him about a situation, I asked beforehand if he would mind critique, made sure to be clear it was only my opinion and obviously I could be misreading the facts, and also brought up things that were great. (And pointed out that I'm still having fun.) We talked, and both seemed satisfied... Until I found out a week later through a mutual friend that he was actually upset by it. I'm the only player who offers real critique, so he thinks I'm too difficult to please/nitpicky since nobody else says they mind.
He's also given total-party heals a couple times, even once when two players were at 0 wounds. And while I do intend to talk to him about this, he's told the group that players won't be fighting each other.

Thus is also a minor point, since he was just starting at this point, but he also once told us that a psuedo-sidequest (Find a missing cat for 2000 bucks) was possible, Out Of Character... And then when, through a stroke of luck, we managed to capture it, (In the course of our duties; of course,) turns out the cat was actually a daemon.

#11 Cail

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 04:19 AM

True Grit is your friend, it reduces the amount of critical damage by half, essentially doubling your survival once you get into criticals. After that you want Step Aside (two dodges a round) and if you can Wall of Steal (multiple parries)

Other uses for fate points people often forget is the ability to heal 1d5 wounds instantly (a god send if you're about to die) and the ability to gain an additional half action in a combat turn. The latter cannot be underestimated.

Have a read of the combat manouvers available to you. If you think the guy is about to hammer you, use full defensive (opponent attacks at -20 ws) and just spend your turn using reactions to defend. If he has high agility and you think you can best him on weapon skill, use a feint half action (opposed weapon skill, if you win the next attack cannot be dodged of parried) before you hit him, which can be combined with the use of a fate point so let you All Out Attack (+20 to ws) when he can't dodge.

Specifically for Big Bad Monsters, remember that numbers are your friend. You get +10 to hit an enemy if you outnumber him (and this increases the more you outnumber him by). Team tactics can work well here. Try to have your best combatant hold his action while everyone else peppers the BBM with bug bites, using up the monsters parries and dodges, then the main combat guy spends a fate point (bringing him back to a full action to use) and uses lightning attack (if he has it) or all out attack (if he doesnt) to deal the damage to a now defenceless enemy.

This last point is really the crux of it. The answer is never 'how do I make my character tougher' it is always 'how can this team work better in combat'. Get the PCs together and discuss roles and strategies in a combat situation. Communication is key.

Also I never trust JRPG style GMs. JRPGs are railroady by their nature, and he may not fully understand the experience you are looking for if that is his frame of reference.


Edited by Cail, 06 July 2014 - 04:24 AM.

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#12 ThenDoctor

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 07:07 AM

If your GM can't take criticism then that's a personal flaw. He probably felt it was an attack on him and not upon the game, but that's something for him to resolve. You might ask your fellow players if they feel the same way or if you're solo in the matter.

 

At least ask him to take a look at the critical wounds table, the effects don't get back until around 5+ wounds, stuff before that is being stunned or taking fatigue.

 

Finding a missing cat...I...I'm not exactly sure how I'd take being delegated to cat finding duty when I was at the very least minorly connected to the Inquisition of F**KING MANKIND!

 

Technically they're an unstable drug that an angelic being that you aren't sure is or isn't a daemon gave you. You should still destroy them, regardless of who it makes angry. What's he going to do? Give you more that you can't possibly destroy because they're guarded by plot?

 

He also doesn't get to decide if the party fights eachother, that's a player driven decision, and if the other player is ok with it than it doesn't matter.

 

You said you also GM, you should take a crack at running some straight up Dark Heresy with him in the party and see if he likes it. ask if he'd be cool alternating sessions.


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#13 Mikmaxs

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 10:26 AM

I know at least one of the other players agrees with me, but I haven't checked with the others. One of our players doesn't complain about anything (He's also one of our best players,) one doesn't have enough confidence to complain (He doesn't know a lot about the fluff and doesn't feel that his acting is very good, so he's always doubting himself and doesn't question the mission,) and one complains, but only when something bad happens to his character. 

 

The missing cat was just kind of a gag, I think. Once again, it was his first mission. Plus, it wasn't anything related to our actual request, we were investigating some chaotic graffiti on a Paradise Planet of sorts and one of the nobles asked us to find their cat. (Of course, a couple of our players were really interested because of the silly big reward. Or, it seemed silly big at the time. It might have been 5k instead of 2k, I can't recall.)

 

I'm thinking I'll hang on to the drugs until our mission is over, at which point I'll hand them over to our inquisitor. If any of our other players try and steal it from me, so be it, I'm giving the drugs to our superior officer. The GM actually asked me privately out of character to let it slide before the mission started, but I'm not so sure I will.

 

As for me GMing while he is in the party, that's another very long story...

Spoiler

 

Long story short, it's his belief that we should make sure the players all survive, never be put up against difficult challenges, have no long term consequences against us, and that we should allow breaches of logic, tone, setting, and common sense to allow the players to do what they want.

 

Except when he doesn't allow me, as a player, to do what I want. (Like a time when I tried to handcuff an NPC who was stunned, and since the NPC was part of a boss fight (And he didn't want it to end too fast,) he made me take agility tests to handcuff each wrist, each test taking half an action. And even though he was stunned for two rounds, he only let me test for one round (Obviously I didn't make it,) before deciding that the boss was back in action. Then, he realized the fight was taking a while and told everyone just to roll their attacks so we could get it done.

Turns out, the NPC with valuable information couldn't die until we subdued him anyways. One player caused a bunch of damage, there was a fancy description, and he fell on his butt with no apparent harm despite being at a whole bunch of critical damage. 



#14 segara82

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 10:43 AM

Long story short, it's his belief that we should make sure the players all survive, never be put up against difficult challenges, have no long term consequences against us, and that we should allow breaches of logic, tone, setting, and common sense to allow the players to do what they want.

 

 

Does not sound very or even remotely Dark Heresy like. It's the complete opposite of my GM style and as it seems your take on DH. Just yesterday in our session i remembered my players about the consequences for their actions by having a group of Dark Eldar pirates attack the transport they were on. Old grudges.

 

But to each their own.

Sadly i can't add more as has been said. You, your group and your GM should have a long talk about it.


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#15 ThenDoctor

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 11:10 AM

You're the GM you control the world and you have final say. Never, NEVER, let a player even if they've GM'd take that from you. They don't have a right.

 

I would've told the player to stuff it, not play a feral psyker and be happy if I decide to introduce him at the beginning of the session and not have to wait until I was ready for it in the adventure. Players don't deserve special treatment just because they think their character is just the most special star in the God Emperor's galaxy.

 

However as you said there are interpersonal consequences to such things. However regardless of his feelings on the matter if you want to play deadly play deadly. Use the crit table have them make tactical decisions, and play by the rules. He'll get himself killed it seems soon enough with his opinions on the system in question whether by saying something that would get him killed or taking a nasty shot. Fear, Insanity, and Corruption rules are your friend. Start using them. He'll either go crazy or tentacly enough to have to kill him anyways.

 

I can't help you deal any more with his GM than having a bit of steel and calling him on the ruling. The person was stunned he couldn't act, what he was calling for was ridiculous and uneccessary. You had every right.

 

I simply suggest playing by the rules, you're an arbitrator, start being the Law. Read and reread the rulebook and use every little thing to your advantage. He'll get mad and fed up, but you'll have the rules on your side. Also try and note every little fiat he has and use those rules against him. If someone gets the chance to handcuff you then ask for their agility tests, and watch him roll them.

 

There needs to be a give and take yes, but this GM/Player seems only interested in playing little more than fan fiction.

 

If you have access to The Book of Judgement there's a list of penalties for crimes as well. I'd read that and start enforcing it if you can.

 

If anything, ask him to start playing a different game. This system doesn't seem at all the kind of thing for his stories, nor what he wants to get out of a character. He'd do well with a more story driven system rather than something with a very set fluff and very involved rule system.


Edited by ThenDoctor, 06 July 2014 - 11:14 AM.

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#16 Alrik Vas

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:43 PM

*chambers a bolter round* Am I the only one here who wants to see this guy beg for mercy at the hands of a truly skilled GM?


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#17 ThenDoctor

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 03:06 PM

Everyone can learn new things. We just have to be open to criticism and be willing to change these behavious that others may not like.


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#18 Gregorius21778

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 04:36 AM

"We were meant to fail.." & "..he does not take critic well"

 

I hate to say so, but with this in mind all of the wonderful advise given here will be fruitless.

Under that circumstances, it does not matter what you do... your GM can always hand-wave it away or generate "Special house trait X" where your Talent/Gear/tactic Y is countered because of GM fiat.

See the "unreachable pillar".

And as you already stated that talking to the GM failed as well....
...hm... :mellow:

You can of course try again with more Support of your fellow Players. And you should. But if this does no good, I am afraid the only thing left for you to do is the decision if the game itself is fun enough for your to continue. And don´t bother to much about putting xp into combat stats anymore.

BUT do not "brag / whine" about that in the open....the way you picture your GM he THEN might start hammering down on you for "playing against him".


 


Edited by Gregorius21778, 07 July 2014 - 04:37 AM.





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