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silver key artifact


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#1 Daisu

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 08:34 AM

Silver key allows to pay one less clue for an effect, does using a clue for a reroll count as an effect?



#2 xodarap

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 10:15 AM

Oh wow that's a good one Daisu.....  I mean according to the rules it looks like they support your idea.  Ref. guide pg. 11 upper right first bullet point:  'When an investigator spends a token or card, such as a CLUE token, he discards it in exchange for an effect.   No rule lawyership there just the question does spending a clue equal using an effect and the answer:  Yes.

 

On one hand I really want to thank you Daisu (well that and figure out what your name means.....I know i've heard it before....) I mean, you've really given me something I can use to give us some help.  On the other hand (still wanna' know about the name tho'.) becuase of how the card is phrased and with everything I've read about loose wording being a consistent challenge with Arkham Horror I believe the spirit of the rule is clear:

 

The Silver Key:  (don't look at me like that, you know that 26.4 of you are just gonna' look it up anywho....my congratulations on the .4 I'm sure they'll make a fine gamer one day!)

 

Item - Magical

 

Once per round, you may spend 1 less clue to pay for an effect.

 

You may reroll 1 die when resolving an Other World Encounter.

 

Do you see it?  If the Silver Key was really intended as a free reroll (since the cost of a reroll is one clue and Silver Key reduces that cost to zero. Crap. now I AM using ruleslawyerease....but I'm using to defend the spirit of the rule so we're cool.) then why would it specifically stipulate that you get a reroll during Other World Encounters?

 

As much as I WANT to use your thought and believe me my investigators could use any help they could get poor Jackie looked into the future and saw her own demise.  Poor girl hasn't been right since... She can't even roll above a 3 anymore!  It's like she's AFRAID to even look!  An' it ain't like the girl's good for anything ELSE.... she's a Psychic for cryin' out loud!  (I'd like to add here how impressed I was that FFG managed to load the dice in such a subtle way to effectively convey the investigators personalities over a series of games.  Ah!  Soooo THAT's why there's only twelve!)

 

Even though I never play with houserules I would rule this as the return of the "unclear phrasing" of cards and how they respond to the many rules in the game.  However that is my own call and it is entirely within the rules to call it your way. 

 

Because of.......

 

What I couldn't find: A rule stipulating that if a cost would be zero it is at least one. (the well known but understated "No freebies in Arkham pal." rule.) Just as if you have zero die in your pool for a test you always have at least one. 

 

If I missed this rule (or the category in the Reference Guide where it IS located.) please correct me becuase this rule would fix the issue entirely.


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#3 Husker949

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:42 AM

We have always played that it would give one free reroll with as a clue token. Mostly we use it as a means of mitigating clue expenditure I.E. using Norman's ability to spend a sanity in place of a clue and using the Silver Key to pay for 2 clues without having a single one. This method works wonderfully when you have to spend, say 4 clues on a mythos card. You can also use it to pay for clues in encounters for closing gates or for gaining the blessed condition/stat up as is prone to happen in Tokyo and a few others.



#4 xodarap

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:09 PM

We have always played that it would give one free reroll with as a clue token. Mostly we use it as a means of mitigating clue expenditure I.E. using Norman's ability to spend a sanity in place of a clue and using the Silver Key to pay for 2 clues without having a single one. This method works wonderfully when you have to spend, say 4 clues on a mythos card. You can also use it to pay for clues in encounters for closing gates or for gaining the blessed condition/stat up as is prone to happen in Tokyo and a few others.


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#5 xodarap

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:13 PM

Sorry! I don't know why my computer suddenly wants to post the quote but not my response....

What I had said was that I'll bet you win/loss is a lot better than mine!

I also wanted to know how you can use a clue to get a blessing because so far (and your group has probably played more game than mine.) I can only get blessed by a Blessing of Isis spell and then not often since it's a lore check at -1 and requires at least 2 (but sometimes even 3!) successes to trigger. Being able to trade a clue for being blessed would be HUGE for my group.
"Hastur. Hastur. Hastur. Suck it, my girlfriend is Science!"
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#6 Husker949

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:16 PM

There are some Encounter cards that say "Spend 1 Clue to gain the Blessed Condition," as part of the encounter instead of doing other things. Some others need the clue to close the gate, or prevent something bad from happening, or gaining an artifact. So far I have seen them in Tokyo and at least 3 other locations that I can't recall off the top of my head. And my win ratio is at 100% for right now with near 2 dozen games played.



#7 xodarap

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:51 AM

There are some Encounter cards that say "Spend 1 Clue to gain the Blessed Condition," as part of the encounter instead of doing other things. Some others need the clue to close the gate, or prevent something bad from happening, or gaining an artifact. So far I have seen them in Tokyo and at least 3 other locations that I can't recall off the top of my head. And my win ratio is at 100% for right now with near 2 dozen games played.


"Hastur. Hastur. Hastur. Suck it, my girlfriend is Science!"
-Will Wheaton-

#8 johnwatersfan

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 06:39 AM

Are you sure you're doing the Blessings of Isis spell right? It is a lore -1 check, but then if you pass, you bless someone in the space with you. Then you flip the card and do the back which sometimes gives you extra stuff if you've made several more successes. The first time I played it I thought I didn't get blessed because I didn't make three successes, but the card says on the front that you get blessed. Either that, or I'm playing it wrong! haha



#9 Husker949

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 01:59 PM

Yes I understand how blessing of Isis works, I am talking about specific Encounters that allow you to gain a blessing by spending a clue token.



#10 johnwatersfan

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 03:05 AM

Sorry Husker, that was for xodarap...   They mentioned that the spell needed two or three successes to trigger...



#11 Husker949

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 05:50 AM

Sorry, all i see is his quoted text and nothing else.



#12 johnwatersfan

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 07:19 AM

Sorry! I don't know why my computer suddenly wants to post the quote but not my response....

What I had said was that I'll bet you win/loss is a lot better than mine!

I also wanted to know how you can use a clue to get a blessing because so far (and your group has probably played more game than mine.) I can only get blessed by a Blessing of Isis spell and then not often since it's a lore check at -1 and requires at least 2 (but sometimes even 3!) successes to trigger. Being able to trade a clue for being blessed would be HUGE for my group.

 

No worries Husker. It was mostly in response to this. It seems to indicate that they were using Blessings of Isis incorrectly. Going with the number of successes on the back instead of getting blessed then flipping the card to see what else happens. I was just trying to make sure that they were playing correctly :)



#13 Husker949

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 11:01 AM

Ahh yeah, I think there is one copy of it that you need to have more than one success for it to be beneficial though. IIRC you get cursed with a 0-1 success, and gain the normal benefits for 2+. I don't have them in front of me so I can't be more specific than that.



#14 johnwatersfan

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:28 AM

Oh, maybe that's in the expansion? I haven't run into that one yet... 



#15 xodarap

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:50 AM

Yeah guys I think it may be the one from the expansion because it is the one Husker949 mentioned you make a -1 Lore check and then you need to have 2 successes for it to trigger, I thought, but reading how you both trigger Isis's effect if the check succeeds and THEN resolve the back I think I may have been playing it wrong.

 

My poor friends have one inescapable enemy in the world of Eldritch Horror - me.

 

Tho' it's never a bad thing to have players commenting that they like how an Arkham game get's EASIER every time we play.....

 

Thanks for the help!


"Hastur. Hastur. Hastur. Suck it, my girlfriend is Science!"
-Will Wheaton-

#16 Husker949

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 05:47 AM

Not a problem that's what the forums are for.



#17 Nainphy

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 01:52 AM

To make it clear: You just need one success to cast a spell with success. Though you can suffer penalties if you have 0 or few successes when you cast it.

With 0 successes, the spell doesn't work and you still suffer some kind of penalty (flip the card to see it). With only one success the spell works, but again, flip the card to see what will happen. This rule is valid for any spell (unless its back state otherwise).

 

About the silver key artifact. I don't let people using it to reroll a die (as if they had a clue). Think: if this was possible, you would be able to reroll infinite times because you use a clue at a time (each clue spent is a different effect to the game). So you'd use infinite times. Oh, i have an imaginary clue (less one = 0). Reroll a die. Oh! I have another imaginary clue (less one = 0, roll another die). It doesn't make any sense. Winning 100% of the time is easy when you make the game easy. I just have 30% of win ratio because i play (when the manual doesn't make it clear) with very good sense and i'm very GLAD of my winning ratio (i don't like easy games and when EH is correctly played, it isn't an easy game).

Btw, i've played around 50 eldritch matches (or even more) so far and Shub is still my hardest AO.


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#18 johnwatersfan

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 03:04 AM

Hi Nainphy, thanks for clearing things up with casting spells.

 

However, about the Silver Key artifact, I think you are missing that it can only be used once per round to reduce the number of clues you spend by one. So if you use the key as a re-roll, you can't continuously use it ad infinitum. You make the re-roll and that's it. You've used the Silver Key to allow you to reduce the cost of spending clues by 1 for that round. You can not use it again until the next round (after the Mythos phase).


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#19 Glaurung

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:50 AM

Hi Nainphy, thanks for clearing things up with casting spells.
 
However, about the Silver Key artifact, I think you are missing that it can only be used once per round to reduce the number of clues you spend by one. So if you use the key as a re-roll, you can't continuously use it ad infinitum. You make the re-roll and that's it. You've used the Silver Key to allow you to reduce the cost of spending clues by 1 for that round. You can not use it again until the next round (after the Mythos phase).


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#20 Nainphy

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 11:29 PM

Yeah, you're right about the silver key artifact. The last player who got this artifact here was trying to be "smart" with me (he "forgot" to say you can use only once). That's why i forbid the clue token effect thing (because it would be too overpower if you could do more than once per round). In almost 50 matches played i've never got this artifact myself so i've never paid too much attention to its text, that was the source of my mistake.






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