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#21 venkelos

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 09:50 PM

I find Rogue Trader slightly paradoxical. On the one hand, they have nigh-infinite power, within their sphere, and access to the best of everything, but on the other hand they write much of the material so that it can be baby's first adventure, and so many "planned" events are not to hard, once you get some gear and XP under you. I say this because I think, from the book's perspective, they want your players to have to act out building some of that spy network, or finding those rare-in-the-Expanse Space Marines, and prostrate yourself before them, hoping to become friends. While the building project you describe would be neat (systems like Stars of Inequity might even benefit if you had a more real list of "things the Dynasty has just sitting around"), the book often takes your Dynasty as brand new, meaning you DON'T have those things, and need to use good role-playing to get them, rather than picking them off the list.Oath-Bound to the Angels of Death was a cool Ascension talent, but not one you should just get to spend XP on; prove to me that you have earned the respect of the Astartes! That sort of thing.

 

Also, Rogue Traders lose so much power inside the Imperium, I imagine many of them, with their Ork Mekboys, Kroot mercenaries, and grav sails just avoid the whole place as much as they can, maybe going to Scintilla or the Lathes when ABSOLUTELY necessary.

 

I might be a fan of another book of places, with unique treasures, some awesome salvage or trade opportunities, and plot hooks aplenty. A handful of off-things in Lure of the Expanse can be more intriguing than it's end, and I like how Hostile Acquisitions and the Koronus Bestiary both draw from its unique places, and add extra cool options to these already options of the Dread Pearl quest. Some more places, be they lost planets, ghostly stations, hulks, or what have you, and the cool information, artifacts, and monsters you might find could be awesome. Looting a ship of the Astrarium AND a ship's unit of enhanced boarding-repelling Murder Servitors would be a nice day, especially if it was on the way to a world where some cool weapon was said to have been lost (ship or personal, I don't care). I know I could make these things up, but sometimes I'm just short on creative thinking.


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#22 Errant

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 10:15 PM

I harp on this tone a lot, but I feel like unless you've got a brand-new, just-minted-by-the-administratum Warrant, your Dynasty should have something concrete that represents the vast wealth that backs them. Favours, trading routes, debts of loyalty and whispers of revenge should be something that the players begin with. Plus, if there are concrete rules for 'You have a spy network in this area', it's more likely that the players will actually want to do that sort of thing. I've run games for a lot of different groups both online and in meatspace, and the one thing I always find is that unless I'm pushing things into their laps to work with, they'll just wait for things to come to them. I want to see the players discussing the merits of having exclusive trading rights over a spice versus the ability to draft an Imperial Guard regiment at their whim. I'm more than capable of houseruling it, but if I can point to an official book and say 'Here are the basic ideas for things you can do, with the mechanical benefits and requirements included', I expect I would see a lot more interesting stuff happening. 


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#23 venkelos

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 11:54 PM

I just find it difficult to figure out what they SHOULD be able to start with. Earning it is one thing, but "just having it" because we said so at the start of the game? I'm not so fond. It makes perfect sense, but seems tricky to peg down, what with power-hungry gamers being that, and all.



#24 Errant

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:45 AM

That's why you do it like Only War's Regiments. You get like one point per ten Profit Factor. Space Marine Tithe costs like 5, Spy Network costs 1. You could also limit it by the Warrant Path so that only x,y,z origin can take Space Marine Tithe, etc.


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#25 Lightbringer

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:38 AM

I agree with you guys. In many ways RT seems to favour a "newly minted/created Rogue Trader" style of play than what is clearly intended to be the  norm: ancient dynasties of Rogue Traders.

 

One area where the current set up of Rogue Trader is good is in making the Dynasty's ship effectively another character, with huge amounts of detail devoted to the ship's features, weapons, characteristics etc. 

 

However, as Errant and venkelos both correctly point out, RT is comparatively weak when it comes to mechanics devoted to generating the dynasty itself in the same way.

 

There should really be equal emphasis on characters, ships and dynasties when it comes to generating a campaign. The dynasty, like a ship, should be like a third character for each player, one that brings advantages and disadvantages. At the moment, as Errant says, there are relatively few mechanics which allow players to define their dynasty, and it would be nice to see some.

 

I like your Only War regiment comparison, Errant. I hadn't thought of it in those terms, and I hadn't thought of a scheme where you "buy" spy networks, Astartes oathed troops etc. This is a brilliant idea.

 

I had independently considered writing up some rules for a system that defined the scope of players' Profit Factor. My thought was that a profit factor of, say, 51 is unlikely to be just a vast pool of gold in a vault that players can swim through like Scrooge McDuck; rather it would consist of "holdings" that players can define and buy as a way of adding flavour to their dynasty. So say 10 of the total profit factor might represent cold hard cash held in bank vaults, 10 might represent a palace on Scintilla, 20 a minor hive on a hive world and the remainder ownership of a moon in orbit around a pleasure world, and so on. My idea was more of a "flavour" and setting mechanic that could be used to generate endeavours and campaigns, as players risk parts of the dynasty's portfolio, or have their holdings attacked by rivals. So if players decide to spend some of their profit factor, they have to liquidate their assets.  

 

Actually your theoretical system and mine might gel together quite well: you could convert profit factor into a mix of "assets" (spy networks, military forces, Astartes pacts etc) and "holdings" (what the bare profit factor actually consists of - money in vaults, property, shares in vast commercial enterprises etc.) 

 

So a profit factor of 51 equals 51 "asset points" which can be used to generate things like quality of household troops, knight freelancer allies etc, and it also equals 51 "holding points", which the player has to commit to a mix of liquid cash, property and long term investments.

 

Generate systems for buying up assets and holdings and you've instantly got a lot of flavour for your individual dynasty. You could work in a merits/flaws system for both assets and holdings, too; allies/enemies, investments/debts etc.  


Edited by Lightbringer, 10 July 2014 - 03:43 AM.

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#26 Nameless2all

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 05:00 AM

I like it.  On my link below in the House Rules section I attempted but never finished a New Profit Rating (PF) Scheme.  A section from it was me discussing various endeavors people would complete and the amount of PF is added to the dynasty.

 

Trade Bonuses

Mine Average                +1 PR

Mine Rare                     +2 PR

Mine Unique                  +3 PR

Agricultural Average      +1 PR

Agricultural Unique        +3 PR

Trade Goods Average   +1 PR

Trade Goods Unique     +3 PR

Weapons Average         +2 PR

Weapons Unique           +4 PR

 

And also Profit Descriptions (examples below) where someone and I attempted to create what PF represented.

 

HIVE WORLD

● Noble Family: For whatever reason (and there are too many possible ones to list), you have a small stake in the

affairs of a planetary elite. You can forego these profits in order to gain social access of all sorts - invitations to the

best parties, visibility among the elite, excellent guides to the local markets in rarities and archaeotech (easier 'find'

rolls, not easier acquisition rolls), and so on.

● Heavy Production Facility: As a result of bringing in financing, supply materials, personnel, or acting as shipping

agent, a share in such a facility might be given out. A heavy production facility will normally be dedicated to the

ongoing production of a single military or industrial item, which should be named. You can forego these profits for

a month to automatically succeed on any Acquisition of those goods, so long as the total penalty on the acquisition

would not be greater than (the profit factor x10).

● Spire Docks: Through heavy trade, financing, or simply by building more docks onto a spire, a stake in a set of

spire docks can be obtained. You can forego these profits in order to keep one vessel (or hull under construction)

per point of profit securely docked and under work for as long as desired. With enough time (measured in months),

simple components such as cargo holds can be constructed at spire docks - whole hulls cannot be built at such a

location, though.

 

Feel free to peruse through them and grab what peeks your interests.  I really do like this idea though.


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For a collection of fan created material, please refer to the link below. Some of it was edited/created by myself and friends, while most is other fan material. Happy gaming people.https://drive.google.com<p>-"May your endeavors always be prosperous, though they may not always be profitable."


#27 Lightbringer

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 05:52 AM

Your latter suggestion is pretty much exactly what I was driving at with my "holdings" concept, nameless. You're putting meat on the bare bones of the Profit Factor number. I like it. My thinking about the holdings woud be something like:- 

 

Your Dynasty is a vast and complex commercial enterprise that constantly seeks to expand its reach and power. In order to establish the scope of the dynasty, you may choose to spend a total number of "Portfolio points"  (PP) equivalent to you Profit Factor on items from the list below, paying the appropriate number of Portfolio points until you reach your total. This then represents the total assets and holdings of your dynasty, in addition to your ship.

 

As you spend or lose Profit Factor, you must dispose of holdings holding the equivalent value in Portfolio Points. Any "lost" Portfolio Points can be added to your vault, which represents liquid assets held by any one of the Calixis Sector's numerous banking houses. As you gain Profit Factor, you must translate the Profit Factor into an equivalent Portfolio holding:-

 

Property

  • Effective legal ownership (directly or via proxy) of a Sector or Subsector Primary Hive or pleasure world - 150PP
  • Effective legal Ownership of a civilised Imperial world - 120PP
  • Effective legal ownership of a death or feudal world - 100PP
  • Effective legal ownership of a habitable moon orbiting a Sector or Subsector Primary Hive or pleasure world - 110PP
  • Effective legal ownership of an uninhabitable moon in an important Imperial system - 50PP
  • Legal ownership of an uninhabitable moon in Imperial space - 20PP
  •  Grand Palace (100 rooms plus) on a Sector or Subsector Primary Hive or pleasure world - 20 PP
  • Grand Palace (100 rooms plus) on a secondary hive or civilised world - 10 PP
  • Grand Palace on a death or feudal world - 5PP
  • Moderate Palace or mansion (25-50 rooms) on a Sector or Subsector Primary Hive or pleasure world - 10 PP
  • Moderate Palace or Mansion (25-50 rooms) on a secondary hive or civilised world - 5 P
  • Moderate Palace or mansion on a death or feudal world - 3PP
  • Legal ownership/dominion over an entire Hive on a Sector or Subsector Primary Hive - 40PP
  • Legal ownership/dominion over an entire Hive on an imperial Hive world of moderate status - 30P

There would then be other lists for other categories of High Imperial "bling", investments in commercial organisations, noble titles (Dukedom of a major world = 5PP, Minor noble title of a lesser world ("Count of Sinophia") 1PP etc). The key point is that these are all things which can be bought and sold, and thus liquidated for cash when needed.

 

The point of the system is to give players an idea of what Profit Factor "means", and to generate fun adventure hooks for players in managing and selling their portfolio of holdings.

 

This would be seperate to (but parallel with) Errant's scheme for the "useful" stuff that the Dynasty has access to, like spy networks, standing armies etc.


Edited by Lightbringer, 10 July 2014 - 06:03 AM.

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#28 Misha

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 06:01 AM

Yeah I like the idea too. You did a fantastic job Lightbringer and Nameless2all! Can't wait to incorperate all this in my RT games. I am making a table where you get a starting amount of points and with them 'buy' the dynasty background. This will include family planet, family expertise and usual trade(eg. military, navy, rogue trader), maybe special retainer, equipment and political power. So if you make a new character you can just use a dynasty background you already made. Need help here and insperation. Post ideas if you can to help me.


Edited by Misha, 10 July 2014 - 06:08 AM.


#29 Nameless2all

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 06:17 AM

Yea it's to much to copy though, because it's about 5 pages worth of information per that specific section.  If you can't access it for some reason then I will post it here and shorten it down.


For a collection of fan created material, please refer to the link below. Some of it was edited/created by myself and friends, while most is other fan material. Happy gaming people.https://drive.google.com<p>-"May your endeavors always be prosperous, though they may not always be profitable."


#30 Misha

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 06:38 AM

Eh? Nameless2all you are going to have to make yourself clearer. Are you replying to my post or are posting something different? Sorry but I can't understand.



#31 Errant

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 07:06 AM

He's referring to https://docs.google....T8pPj7UWLs/edit I assume.



#32 Nameless2all

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 08:35 AM

What Errant said.  :)


For a collection of fan created material, please refer to the link below. Some of it was edited/created by myself and friends, while most is other fan material. Happy gaming people.https://drive.google.com<p>-"May your endeavors always be prosperous, though they may not always be profitable."


#33 zakueins

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 10:20 AM

I love this idea and would definitely include it in a second edtion of the game.  Profit factor being used to purchase big feudal things in the game-like property, access, and "Intangables".  "Intangables" would be things like "we have a 'tame' Inquisitor running interference for us in the Cold Trade," "the local Eldar Craftworld gave us access to some parts of the local Webway," or "a Space Marine Chapter owes us one 'no questions asked' favor"...eventually ending with the players owning quite a bit in both actual items and a web of favors and connections.

 

Mind you, these purchases would be adventure hooks (how does one get a 'tame' Inquisitor?  You're making sure he has plenty of other people in the Cold Trade to go after...), not just "spend and get".

 

I agree with you guys. In many ways RT seems to favour a "newly minted/created Rogue Trader" style of play than what is clearly intended to be the  norm: ancient dynasties of Rogue Traders.

 

One area where the current set up of Rogue Trader is good is in making the Dynasty's ship effectively another character, with huge amounts of detail devoted to the ship's features, weapons, characteristics etc. 

 

However, as Errant and venkelos both correctly point out, RT is comparatively weak when it comes to mechanics devoted to generating the dynasty itself in the same way.

 

There should really be equal emphasis on characters, ships and dynasties when it comes to generating a campaign. The dynasty, like a ship, should be like a third character for each player, one that brings advantages and disadvantages. At the moment, as Errant says, there are relatively few mechanics which allow players to define their dynasty, and it would be nice to see some.

 

I like your Only War regiment comparison, Errant. I hadn't thought of it in those terms, and I hadn't thought of a scheme where you "buy" spy networks, Astartes oathed troops etc. This is a brilliant idea.

 

I had independently considered writing up some rules for a system that defined the scope of players' Profit Factor. My thought was that a profit factor of, say, 51 is unlikely to be just a vast pool of gold in a vault that players can swim through like Scrooge McDuck; rather it would consist of "holdings" that players can define and buy as a way of adding flavour to their dynasty. So say 10 of the total profit factor might represent cold hard cash held in bank vaults, 10 might represent a palace on Scintilla, 20 a minor hive on a hive world and the remainder ownership of a moon in orbit around a pleasure world, and so on. My idea was more of a "flavour" and setting mechanic that could be used to generate endeavours and campaigns, as players risk parts of the dynasty's portfolio, or have their holdings attacked by rivals. So if players decide to spend some of their profit factor, they have to liquidate their assets.  

 

Actually your theoretical system and mine might gel together quite well: you could convert profit factor into a mix of "assets" (spy networks, military forces, Astartes pacts etc) and "holdings" (what the bare profit factor actually consists of - money in vaults, property, shares in vast commercial enterprises etc.) 

 

So a profit factor of 51 equals 51 "asset points" which can be used to generate things like quality of household troops, knight freelancer allies etc, and it also equals 51 "holding points", which the player has to commit to a mix of liquid cash, property and long term investments.

 

Generate systems for buying up assets and holdings and you've instantly got a lot of flavour for your individual dynasty. You could work in a merits/flaws system for both assets and holdings, too; allies/enemies, investments/debts etc.  



#34 Quicksilver

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:13 PM

I like a lot of the ideas put up here, and agree that many of them would be really good for a new edition, or as a supplemental book (say “dynasties of renown or something).  I, in particular, have a number of players in my group (myself included, were I not the GM) who are ‘world builders’ by nature, and would absolutely love to work on building out the nature of the dynasty and its holdings.

 

I also agree that it would be nice if there were things, particularly large thing that cost Profit Factor to maintain.  It’s not that you lose the profit factor specifically, but that everything you gain from that source of income (or reputation) is being used to maintain this.  (I already do this with house rules for ships, a freeblade knight and a cargo and docking peir on port wander.)  I feel like there should also be a way to burn profit factor for temporary items.  Lore is full of useless RTs who have squandered away inherited fortunes, and I’d be nice to have a mechanical way for that to have happened (and for your characters to do it themselves, if they wish)

 

One thing not yet mentioned that I’d love to see is a comprehensive system for followers.  I also strongly believe that at the Rogue Trader level, these shouldn’t be bought with XP, they should be acquisitions.  I ended up having to build a whole house rule set for acquiring followers after my RT asked for a personal Remembrancer, my Tech Priest wanted an apprentice, my Arch-millitant wanted five “elite squad members”, my Navagator wanted a bodyguard and a socialite, and my Astropath wanted a cat.  (ok, the last one wasn’t hard)

 

A simple method for individualizing and upgrading NPC ship crews other than just changing ship load out would be nice.  I had to invent an “imperial navy” ship trait just to give them a decent chance to stand against the NPC Rogue Traders.


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#35 Marwynn

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:33 PM

I'm kinda writing something along those lines and it's getting a bit out of hand. I've written rules for ship acquisition, Dynasty Fleet "traits", Leadership Traits (for NPCs), formations (squadrons and convoys), Fleet organization, and Operations (which are NPC follow-up endeavours).

 

I'm currently expanding the part about fleet leadership traits and the next will probably move on to giving each ship some flavour. 

 

It's getting out of control!

 

But if I finish it, I know a supplement or the next edition will be announced right after... 


Edited by Marwynn, 10 July 2014 - 12:33 PM.

The Gathering Strom  - A Chronicle of Intrigue, Space Battles, Planetary Invasions, and Dinner Parties

The Blessed Enterprise - Flagship of the Strom Dynasty / Reception Hall

Into the Strom - Venture into the secrets of the Strom Dynasty! 


#36 Quicksilver

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:42 PM

If it helps, this is the one I use for the Imperial Navy:

The Eldridge has an officer core and chain of command a private vessel could never gather or sustain. The ship counts as having a PC in every ship role. In addition, they may perform as many Extended Actions as desired.

 

And this is an example of one I made up for one of the wholly owned escorts.

Smash and Grab Captain Redbeard's piratical experience has given him unique insight on how to grab valuable items off of starships in very short amounts of time. When he performs a Hit & Run action, he provides 1d5x10 Achievement points (max 100/battle). In addition, performing Hit & Run attacks does not count against the number of extended actions his ship may take.

Strike and Fade Captain Redbeard has no stomach for long battles. Starting on the fifth round of combat, his ship suffers a -5 crew rating, and can no longer use the 'Put your backs into it' extended action.


90% of the time I'm posting without access to rulebooks.  Unless I say otherwise, assume everything is I.I.R.C.


#37 Errant

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 04:03 PM

But if I finish it, I know a supplement or the next edition will be announced right after... 

Think of it as a public service; either we get house rules for a glaring omission, or we get an official book and house rules that most people decide are better anyway!



#38 Misha

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 07:03 PM

I am currently making an influence chart. This chart is about family/dynasty influence, so where your dynasty has friends. For example the name of Havaros is welcomed by the High Lords of Terra while the name of Barandos is repugnant to them. Instead of just getting better fellowship bonuses, I've made so you can 'buy' an inquisitors help or a friendly generals own bodyguard or even a shadowy assassin that helps you in times of need. Need help still and ideas.



#39 Radwraith

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 11:17 PM

I think these Ideas are inspired! It would be interesting to have some guidelines as to what makes up profit factor. How much is assets? Favors? How about raw political influence? The Maximum PF a single colony can produce is about 20 or so. So what else? The mere posession of some vessels might equal some influence.

The warrant path in Into the storm offers some insight into where the warrant comes from. Something that builds upon this would certainly be useful!



#40 zakueins

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 11:18 PM

That would actually be useful.  And, buying influence might make it harder to buy other forms of influence.  For example, let's take the Krononus Expanse's two biggest sides-Winterscale and Chorda.  Gaining influence with Winterscale means it's easier to gain access to the Cold Trade, more "mercenary" assets, criminal syndcates that have as much power as some Imperial Governors, etc, etc, etc...  But, by doing so, you make it harder to purchase "legitimate" assets like alliances with Battlefleet Kronous or the Administratium or the Inquistion.  Alliances with Chorda could mean the reverse-easier access to Imperial Navy assets, alliances with Space Marine chapters to root out the xenos threat, etc, etc, etc...

 

I am currently making an influence chart. This chart is about family/dynasty influence, so where your dynasty has friends. For example the name of Havaros is welcomed by the High Lords of Terra while the name of Barandos is repugnant to them. Instead of just getting better fellowship bonuses, I've made so you can 'buy' an inquisitors help or a friendly generals own bodyguard or even a shadowy assassin that helps you in times of need. Need help still and ideas.






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