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Two-Weapon Fighting Basic Weapons Single Shot Only?


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#1 Nilroth

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 09:20 AM

Hey all, just a quick question that I couldn't find the answer to:

Based on the core rulebook, it looks like if you are wielding two firearms and you have two-weapon fighting ballistic, you can only burst or full auto with pistols even though you can wield two basic weapons in each hand. Is this correct or am I missing something? I know this can be houseruled, but I'm asking for a RAW answer.

If this is correct, is this RAI? I'm a little new to the setting and not quite sure how much difference there is in damage from pistols to basic weapons. I could theory-craft it, but I've found that what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily hold up in practice.

Edited by Nilroth, 03 July 2014 - 09:27 AM.


#2 Magellan

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 10:49 AM

The difference in damage is quite large, the difference in rate of fire larger, and the difference in range even larger. I think you're right about the RAW, but the only way you're gonna find out what they intended is to ask the writers.


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#3 Marwynn

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 11:16 AM

Hmm, I checked the 1.4 Errata and p.246 of the RT book and I can't see any limitation on allowing only Pistols to be dual-wielded and fired in semi or full auto. 

 

In melee, you'll need a Pistol to attack with a melee weapon and a ranged weapon at the same time, that's it. But if you have Recoil Gloves and say two Bolters, you can go full-auto with both. With Two-Weapon Wielder (Ballistic) and Ambidextrous that's only a -10 Penalty, easily negated by a full auto burst's +20. 

 

RAW I can't find anything against wielding a Basic weapon in each hand and John Woo/Rambo-ing the place. Whether your GM will let you do it is another matter entirely. 


Edited by Marwynn, 03 July 2014 - 11:16 AM.

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#4 Nilroth

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 12:08 PM

Page 239 of the core rulebook under full auto burst reads: "if the character has a pistol in each hand, both capable of fully automatic fire, he may fire both with this action" semi auto burst had the same thing on page 242. As I said, I'm looking for RAW and not houserules. What I'm wondering is if it says anywhere if wielding a basic weapon in one hand treats it as a pistol (obviously not for proficiency) or something similar that allows a character to full auto or semi burst while dual wielding basic weapons because logic says it should work. However, balance normally trumps logic in table top RPGs.

#5 Magellan

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 02:19 PM

No, I am quite certain nothing says that. Nothing technically says you *can't* do it with basic weapons, but I do see where you're coming from. Additionally, it makes sense to limit it, since nothing is really stronger than dual-wielding basic weapons.

 

Of course, that still doesn't keep you from dualing grenade launchers and killing the universe that way.


The Magos says he has no crude emotions to control

Just an iron fist, an iron will and an iron-banded soul


#6 Erathia

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:43 PM

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said in that there's no RAW against it... except for the one that says "the character may use any melee weapons or ranged weapons that can be reasonably used in one hand". Which is a delightful catch-all for the GM being able to give you a staredown and just say the word "No" over and over again.


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#7 Nilroth

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 08:57 PM

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said in that there's no RAW against it...


Except for the direct quote I made from the core rule book under the full auto and semi burst section that specifically calls out pistols as being the only weapons that can use those actions while dual wielding? I'm wondering if I misinterpreted your post, if so then I apologize. Anyway, my question has been answered so thanks guys.

#8 Marwynn

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 09:07 PM

"If the character has a pistol in each hand, both capable of fully automatic fire, he may fire both with this action."

 

There are several ways to interpret that, and the only correct way would be known by the writers. To me, that simply allows a pistol wielder to also go John Woo upon some unfortunate xenos. Nothing in that section specifically prevents you from doing so with Baisc weapons.

 

The standard position seems to be that it isn't explicitly forbidden.

 

All I know is I'm going to try and get my Rogue Trader some training with Basic weapons.


Edited by Marwynn, 03 July 2014 - 09:07 PM.

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#9 Erathia

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 09:59 PM

"If the character has a pistol in each hand, both capable of fully automatic fire, he may fire both with this action."

 

There are several ways to interpret that, and the only correct way would be known by the writers. To me, that simply allows a pistol wielder to also go John Woo upon some unfortunate xenos. Nothing in that section specifically prevents you from doing so with Baisc weapons.

 

The standard position seems to be that it isn't explicitly forbidden.

 

All I know is I'm going to try and get my Rogue Trader some training with Basic weapons.

 

Sorry this is the point that I meant. 

 

There's another rule that says when firing a fully automatic weapon in each hand the character may only lay down one area of suppressing fire. This doesn't specifically mention pistols, making a valid implication that you could be using two Basic weapons here.

 

Also Marwynn I am disappointed in you. You should be getting a Heavy Stubber connected to your body via a servo-harness and controlled with an MIU Weapon Interface which imposes no limitations on class of weapon controlled, and then also be wielding a second Heavy Stubber and really go to town. Stopping at Basic Weapons is criminally underimaginative for you.

 

Please note I am a GM in my game because I'm not allowed to think up of ideas like this anymore.


Edited by Erathia, 03 July 2014 - 09:59 PM.

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#10 Spatulaodoom

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:58 AM


There are several ways to interpret that, and the only correct way would be known by the writers. To me, that simply allows a pistol wielder to also go John Woo upon some unfortunate xenos. Nothing in that section specifically prevents you from doing so with Baisc weapons.

 

The standard position seems to be that it isn't explicitly forbidden.

Repeat after me. "Just because the rules don't say you can't, doesn't mean you can."

The rules for Called shots gives examples of types of locations you can pick, but since it doesn't limit it to only those locations then obviously I can target a called shot on his cerebellum, meaning logically I'll kill or permanently paralyze him with any shot that deals damage. I could also do called shots on his sense of self worth, ability to see the color green, and inability to summon delicious hot muffins from thin air. Man, called shots are awesome.

 

 

RAW the answer is that yes you can dual wield basic weapons, but you may not use the semi-auto and full auto actions with two basic weapons or two heavy weapons as the inclusive language used in the description of these actions only mentions pistol weapons, excluding the use of other types of weaponry. All other actions possible with basic weapons use no language which would exclude their use.

Only talents or abilities (like the micro weapon upgrade) that would cause the basic weapon to be treated as a pistol weapon would allow them to be used with the full-auto or semi-auto actions.

 

RAI... *Shrug* Dunno.


Edited by Spatulaodoom, 08 July 2014 - 05:00 AM.

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#11 Magellan

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:44 AM

Also Marwynn I am disappointed in you. You should be getting a Heavy Stubber connected to your body via a servo-harness and controlled with an MIU Weapon Interface which imposes no limitations on class of weapon controlled, and then also be wielding a second Heavy Stubber and really go to town. Stopping at Basic Weapons is criminally underimaginative for you.

Why take something so burgeoise as heavy stubbers, when there are perfectly good assault cannons in the Inquisitor's Handbook?

 

And you are quite right, spatulaofdoom. There is nothing preventing me from installing bionic senses of style in all my servitors. Sadly, the one time we needed to know how many people were in a hive, my GM wouldn't let me get bionic census.


Edited by Magellan, 08 July 2014 - 06:49 AM.

The Magos says he has no crude emotions to control

Just an iron fist, an iron will and an iron-banded soul


#12 Kasatka

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 07:06 AM

Step One - Acquire a load of storm bolters with the mico weapon upgrade (making them pistols), then give them forearm weapon mountings, then give them all the motion predictors, shot selectors, voice activation etc upgrades you want.

Step Two - Strap these monstrosities onto the forearms of all of your player characters.

 

Step Three - Throw a bucket of dice at your GM whenever the players get attacked and open up with their wall-of-bolt-shells.

 

Step Four - Cry.

 

Step Five - The game is dropped and nobody ever speaks of it again.


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper.

Only those that prosper may truly judge what is sane.


#13 Erathia

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:52 AM

Step One - Acquire a load of storm bolters with the mico weapon upgrade (making them pistols), then give them forearm weapon mountings, then give them all the motion predictors, shot selectors, voice activation etc upgrades you want.

Step Two - Strap these monstrosities onto the forearms of all of your player characters.

 

Step Three - Throw a bucket of dice at your GM whenever the players get attacked and open up with their wall-of-bolt-shells.

 

Step Four - Cry.

 

Step Five - The game is dropped and nobody ever speaks of it again.

 

I've usually found this is an excellent encouragement to introduce the concept of enemy snipers. SHadow Specter Eldar are great for surprise murder.


Citizens of Grace! We have defeated both the Dark Eldar and Ork menaces that threatened your system! We need no thanks nor payments, so long as you do not leave the atmosphere during our salvage operations under pain of death! - Jequin Hos of The Hos Dynasty


#14 Kasatka

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 09:02 AM

Oh if you want surprise murder just let the players feel like they are accomplishing all their hopes and dreams then reveal that all of their actions have led to the establishment and spread of a cult of tzeentch among battle fleet koronus and have the whole fleet show up. In the midst of fighting for their lives and fleeing as best they can have all of the bridge crew pull out crescent moon ritual knives and slit their own throats, summoning a changer of ways that proceeds to mockingly explain how all of their actions have been for naught before proceeding to wipe them out one by one...

 

That totally never happened in a game i've been in (yet).


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper.

Only those that prosper may truly judge what is sane.


#15 Errant

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 04:48 PM

Step One - Acquire a load of storm bolters with the mico weapon upgrade (making them pistols), then give them forearm weapon mountings, then give them all the motion predictors, shot selectors, voice activation etc upgrades you want.

My players tried exactly this. Happily, they didn't realise how rare the ammunition would be to get hold of, so they wound up with barely a couple of magazines between them after the first couple of combats.



#16 Magellan

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:10 PM

Except in Rogue Trader, what you acquire is not an amount of magazines, but an amount of lifetime supplies of ammo.


The Magos says he has no crude emotions to control

Just an iron fist, an iron will and an iron-banded soul


#17 Kasatka

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:31 AM

Rule of 3 - you have 3 clips of ammo or 3 individual grenades, missiles etc on your person during an away mission. You can restock for free. If the players want exotic ammo they acquire it separately then roll for upkeep when you feel they have been abusing their supplies.


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper.

Only those that prosper may truly judge what is sane.


#18 Errant

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 07:43 AM

Except in Rogue Trader, what you acquire is not an amount of magazines, but an amount of lifetime supplies of ammo.

Except that Micro explicitly makes the ammunition two degrees more rare to acquire. They chewed through a whole bunch of the ammunition really quickly after they got it, so I had them make upkeep tests. Which they failed. And continued to fail. To the point where the only ammunition they had left was what was in the guns at the time.



#19 Magellan

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:24 AM

Well, that's on you, not them.


The Magos says he has no crude emotions to control

Just an iron fist, an iron will and an iron-banded soul





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