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SoN: Lost, first encounter


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#1 Sixko

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 07:03 AM

So yesterday we played the first encounter of the quest "Lost".

Victory conditions for the overlord is to knock out each hero with "the beast".

However, the heroes (also known as "the band of leroooooy") figured that if they put one of their heroes in one of the harazard spaces and knocked out one of their heroes and never performed a stand up/ressurection then the overlord could never win and they would have an infinite number of turns to complete their objective.

This could also have been done by not standing up after another monster knocked a hero down.

 

Did we miss something?

Valid tactic from the heroes part och an oversight of quest mechanics from FFG?

 

I already sent a rules question to FFG but I would appreciate input from you guys as well.


Edited by Sixko, 03 July 2014 - 07:44 AM.


#2 Zaltyre

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 08:48 AM

I don't have my quest guide in front of me, but are you sure that the victory conditions are only that they're knocked out by the beast, and that the special rules don't handle if a hero gets knocked out another way? I've read this quest, I just haven't played it. In any case, FFG should be able to answer your question.


Edited by Zaltyre, 03 July 2014 - 08:49 AM.


#3 Coldmoonrising

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 02:12 PM

After reviewing the encounter 1 victory conditions and special rules for the Beast, it appears the heroes did find a way around this.

 

... Each time the Beast performs an attack that knocks out a hero, the overlord places 1 hero token from that hero in his play area. ...

 

So, with this in mind, there could be a couple possible things to consider.

  1. The heroes keep 1 guy KO'd for the time being while they search for the key then book once it's found.
  2. The Overlord wipes the remaining 3 heroes (as the game is setup to deal with 4) and then you're left in a stand-off.

So with #2 in mind, they're putting themselves at a bit of a disadvantage. At that point, it all comes down to rolls and cards, etc.

 

But yeah, it looks like they found a way around the Overlord victory conditions in that one. If anything, the hero victory conditions should have been that all heroes move off the map, rather than 1.



#4 Sixko

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 02:41 AM

Well, the stand of would have ended with a hero victory given enough time.

Sure, it might take hundreds or even thousands of turns but given enough time the overlord will roll so many misses that the heroes can take over and win.



#5 thedremak

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 11:21 PM

If you have a plot deck, it's a good chance to rack up threat tokens.

#6 BenOverlord

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 12:58 AM

There are a lot of quests where one side or another can force a stalemate.  I think in general you just need to have a gentleman's agreement not to do that. 



#7 Zaltyre

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 08:21 AM

There are a lot of quests where one side or another can force a stalemate.  I think in general you just need to have a gentleman's agreement not to do that. 

Also, after reading the rules of this quest, it is so clearly not to the heroes' advantage to force that stalemate, that I don't even think this requires a rule fix. If the heroes choose to cause 1 or more heroes to not stand up:

-The Beast will get hero tokens from all standing heroes, which will make encounter 2 more difficult to win.

-The OL will get all of his OL cards into his hand, making encounter 2 even more difficult to win.

-The OL will almost certainly be able to knock down the remaining heroes, getting him threat = number of hero players. (EDITED)

 

In short, all the heroes can do is stall, but stalling just hands encounter 2 to the OL, which is the only encounter that actually matters.

 

It's true, the heroes can pause play of the campaign and refuse to let it progress- but that's true of almost any quest where there is an objective for one side but not a time limit, and the OL certainly has that power in some quests. But if that's the mindset of the players, why are they even playing at all?


Edited by Zaltyre, 05 July 2014 - 06:46 PM.


#8 Whitewing

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 10:58 AM

 

There are a lot of quests where one side or another can force a stalemate.  I think in general you just need to have a gentleman's agreement not to do that. 

Also, after reading the rules of this quest, it is so clearly not to the heroes' advantage to force that stalemate, that I don't even think this requires a rule fix. If the heroes choose to cause 1 or more heroes to not stand up:

-The Beast will get hero tokens from all standing heroes, which will make encounter 2 more difficult to win.

-The OL will get all of his OL cards into his hand, making encounter 2 even more difficult to win.

-The OL will amass threat by killing any standing heroes for as long as they choose to keep standing up.

 

In short, all the heroes can do is stall, but stalling just hands encounter 2 to the OL, which is the only encounter that actually matters.

 

It's true, the heroes can pause play of the campaign and refuse to let it progress- but that's true of almost any quest where there is an objective for one side but not a time limit, and the OL certainly has that power in some quests. But if that's the mindset of the players, why are they even playing at all?

 

 

FYI, you can only get 1 threat from a hero for knocking him down in a quest. Once you've gotten a threat from him that way, for the rest of the quest you can only take overlord cards. You can do it once per hero per quest.


Edited by Whitewing, 05 July 2014 - 10:59 AM.


#9 Zaltyre

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 06:47 PM

That's what I get for talking about threat when I don't play with it myself. Thanks, Whitewing, I edited my post.


Edited by Zaltyre, 05 July 2014 - 06:47 PM.


#10 Whitewing

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 07:09 PM

That's what I get for talking about threat when I don't play with it myself. Thanks, Whitewing, I edited my post.

 

No problem, just trying to clear up some confusion.



#11 Sixko

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 01:44 PM

Hey guys, Ive got a reply from Nathan.

 

Question:

Shadows of nerekhall, quest "Lost" first encounter.
Rules state that the overlord only gets a hero token when the beast knocks a hero out.
If a hero is knocked out from something else, another monster or by end his turn in a hazard space and then never performing a stand up action the heroes basicly gets an infinite number of turns to get all of the search tokens and win the encounter.
Is this intentional? If so, this quest could take an insane amount of time to actually play through.

 

Answer:

No, this is not intentional. I would rule that if a player is knocked-out and chooses not to stand up during his turn, the overlord may take his hero token and place is in his play area. I will look into adding this to the next errata. 


Edited by Sixko, 07 July 2014 - 01:45 PM.


#12 Coldmoonrising

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:07 PM

Good to hear that this loop-hole will tied up in the next errata. I have yet to play the quest but I'm sure it'd be frustrating to say the least.






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