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Thror's key versus Surge


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#21 raven614

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:13 AM

Yeah your right makes sense those three are the ones that come up in that situation. Thanks for the reply. That senario To Catch an Ork really makes you juggle a lot of things at a time. I'm pretty sure I've got the rules down but to play in this game you have to stay sharp and remember what's going on at any givin moment.

#22 Dain Ironfoot

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:48 AM

my point is that I do not think you can ever draw surge "after" when revealed. Keywords resolve first.

 

The only time you can is when surge is part of the when reveled effect and of course subject to all the normal when revealed triggers.

this is not what the core rulebook says, page 24:

 

"When an encounter card with the surge keyword is revealed during the staging step of the quest phase or in setup, reveal 1 additional card from the encounter deck. Resolve the surge keyword immediately after resolving any when revealed effects on the card. "


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#23 entMoot

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:50 AM

surge occurring inside the when reveal effect isn't an issue in any way. When you see surge you draw the next card BEFORE you do when reveals. Then you go and do the when reveal and draw a 2nd card. This order dose matter in some cases.

 

The timing of the keywoprds and the when reveal is not an issue, the issue is how passive "always on" effects work. Thalin is not a response, or any other type of thing, it is a permanent effect that is always in play and there is at this time NOTHING in the timing rules to explain this. Thalin dose seam to make it seam that it trumps all other effects

 

Always on

Keyword (resolved in order)

Forced Response

Response

When Revealed

Action (at end of staging step only, not between card reveals)

 

 

 

But I have another one for you... .. where do "FORCED" fit in... like Goblin Archer.

 

[snip]

 

Is this just a way of writing "forced response" and taking up less room? Or is this is new effect. It relates directly to this issue of the timing windows being so sloppy.

 

There can be a argument made as this has no response window that it is also a kind of "always on"... so lets look at this!

 

Orc Hornblow Surges into Chieftain of the pit, into Goblin Archer.

 

[snip][snip]

 

So Horn Blower comes out.... this triggers surge and out comes the chieftain, then when revealed out comes the Archer.

 

Now his effect is forced.. NOT a response. The entire staging step we know all happens in a single go, the action phase is at the end... So all these cards are considered to be a single reveal. Remembering that this is NOT A RESPONSE, there is a argument that when this cards effect resolves that forced at the very end, but there has been 3 cards revealed this turn. So he dose 3 damage.

 

If it was response it would be an open and shut case, but it is forced, so the card comes into play, there is no keywords, we now resolve the forced. There has been three cards revealed .. so 3 damage.

 

[snip]

 

So again.. where do these 2 effects sit in the order?

Hey booored, This is an interesting scenario. I got a little confused trying to sort through it, but I think the rulebook helps for the most part. From page 23, the categories an effect can fall under are

  • Constant Effect
  • Action (players only, optional, needs action window)
  • Response (players only, optional)
  • Forced
  • When Revealed (encounters only, subset of forced)
  • Shadow Effects (encounters only)
  • Travel Effects (encounters only)

Note that there is technically no such thing as a "forced response", only forced effects which are similar to responses but take the decision to initiate the effect away from the players.

 

Responses:

"Responses are always optional, and can be triggered by their controller in response to (i.e. immediately after) a specified game occurrence."

 

Forced:

"They are denoted by a bold Forced: trigger on a card. These effects initiate and resolve immediately, whenever their specified prerequisite occurs." 

 

Flipping back to page 14 of the rulebook, we see that your claim that "staging happens all at once" is not quite right. While there is no player action window,

 

"These encounter cards are revealed one at a time, with any “when revealed” effects being resolved before the next card is revealed."
 
And based on the rules for the card effects above, we can trigger responses or forced effects only immediately when their condition is met. Hence the Archer being revealed last is optimal and he doesn't get to the party in time to see his 2 buddies in your scenario. My hunch is that Goblin Archer doesn't trigger his own forced effect since by the time he is in play, he doesn't count as being revealed anymore. However I don't know that this is definitely the case based on the rulebook alone.
 
Getting back to surge and when to take cards from the deck/reveal, the rulebook only says this about the keyword (page 24):

 

"When an encounter card with the surge keyword is revealed during the staging step of the quest phase or in setup, reveal 1 additional card from the encounter deck. Resolve the surge keyword immediately after resolving any when revealed effects on the card."

 

The first sentence is the effect and the second is the timing. So we do not stock-pile all the surge card before or after all of the other revealed cards since we resolve surge immediately after when revealed effects on the card with surge. We should see that the encounter card just revealed has surge and then resolve its when revealed. Then we should reveal 1 additional card from the encounter deck. It doesn't say anywhere to set the cards aside for later.

 

(EDIT: Dain beat me to the punch. Sorry if this part about surge reads like beating a dead horse.)


Edited by entMoot, 21 July 2014 - 09:59 AM.

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#24 Dain Ironfoot

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:53 AM


 

Now his effect is forced.. NOT a response. The entire staging step we know all happens in a single go, the action phase is at the end... So all these cards are considered to be a single reveal. Remembering that this is NOT A RESPONSE, there is a argument that when this cards effect resolves that forced at the very end, but there has been 3 cards revealed this turn. So he dose 3 damage.

 

this is also not true. page 14 of the core rulebook:

 

After each player has had the opportunity to commit characters to the quest, the encounter deck reveals
one card per player. This is known in the game as staging. These encounter cards are revealed one at a time, with any “when revealed” effects being resolved before the next card is revealed. Enemy and location cards revealed in this manner are placed in the staging area, treachery cards are resolved and (unless otherwise indicated by the card text) placed in the discard pile.

If the encounter deck is ever empty during the quest phase, the encounter discard pile is shuffled and reset back into the encounter deck.


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#25 booored

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:45 PM

my point is that I do not think you can ever draw surge "after" when revealed. Keywords resolve first.
 
The only time you can is when surge is part of the when reveled effect and of course subject to all the normal when revealed triggers.

this is not what the core rulebook says, page 24:
"When an encounter card with the surge keyword is [/size]revealed during the staging step of the quest phase or in [/size]setup, reveal 1 additional card from the encounter deck. Resolve the surge keyword immediately after resolving [/size]any when revealed effects on the card. "[/size]


Yeah but that rule is stupid. Not only dose it make the timing effects completely retarded, hence this thread, it also means that you can not read the card in the order it is printed. Making the entire game more confusing for new player. As well as removing tons of awesome effects and completely gutting how surge works.

This is the big problem with this game, it is so badly designed. The good news is that you can so easily improve it.

Edited by booored, 21 July 2014 - 04:49 PM.

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#26 entMoot

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:11 PM

 
Yeah but that rule is stupid. Not only dose it make the timing effects completely retarded, hence this thread, it also means that you can not read the card in the order it is printed. Making the entire game more confusing for new player. As well as removing tons of awesome effects and completely gutting how surge works.

This is the big problem with this game, it is so badly designed. The good news is that you can so easily improve it.

 

 

I agree that not resolving actions in the order they are read is a frustrating part of surge. What awesome effects are we missing out on, though? What do you mean the core rules are gutting how surge works? I'm just not sure how much you are gaining by changing the order of resolution as you advocate doing. Your previous example still would not have had the Archer dealing damage since his forced effect can't trigger off enemies already in play (he was the last reveal).



#27 booored

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:27 PM

that is how i read it as well, but there is an argument that the card reveals are all instant.

There are no action windows. Each player reveals their cards and then resolves them. The Archer effect is not a trigger but just forced. By the time the archer card is in the staging area and that text is active... all the other cards have been revealed and have entered. There is no timing information on the archer, it is not a response. So when you read the order of events all those crads are valid as they have all just entered the staging area in the same period of time as the forced text became active.

We ruled against this but the argument is sound. There is no ruling to say yay or nay on this on.
"People should be less concerned about whether they are being insulted and more concerned if it is the truth"

#28 Dain Ironfoot

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:15 PM

that is how i read it as well, but there is an argument that the card reveals are all instant.

There are no action windows. Each player reveals their cards and then resolves them. The Archer effect is not a trigger but just forced. By the time the archer card is in the staging area and that text is active... all the other cards have been revealed and have entered. There is no timing information on the archer, it is not a response. So when you read the order of events all those crads are valid as they have all just entered the staging area in the same period of time as the forced text became active.

We ruled against this but the argument is sound. There is no ruling to say yay or nay on this on.

no, there is a ruling on this: the rulebook.

 

the archer does not place damage on on every enemy, in your example.

 

it is not unclear. it is your interpretation of the rules that doesn't mesh with what the rulebook actually says.


Edited by Dain Ironfoot, 21 July 2014 - 06:16 PM.

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#29 booored

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:25 PM

As I said (twice now) I agree with you, but that doesn't make the argument any less valid. There is no ruling on this. So your "opinion" is just that and no more correct than anyone else.


"People should be less concerned about whether they are being insulted and more concerned if it is the truth"

#30 Khamul The Easterling

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:35 PM

Dain, I thought you left the forums because of this  :mellow:

 

ha


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Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamul the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's Lieutenant, with one other as his messenger."  - Unfinished Tales


#31 Dain Ironfoot

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:44 PM

As I said (twice now) I agree with you, but that doesn't make the argument any less valid. There is no ruling on this. So your "opinion" is just that and no more correct than anyone else.

yes, it does make your original argument less valid. it makes it total invalid.

 

spend less time making up your own rules, and focus on the actual rules, as written.

 

it seems that in just about every rules thread over the past 6 months, you've been ruled against by the designers, and the actual rulebook itself (or FAQ).

 

just because you think there isn't a ruling when it's perfectly crystal clear - doesn't mean there isn't one.


Edited by Dain Ironfoot, 21 July 2014 - 07:44 PM.

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#32 entMoot

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:51 PM

that is how i read it as well, but there is an argument that the card reveals are all instant.

There are no action windows. Each player reveals their cards and then resolves them. The Archer effect is not a trigger but just forced. By the time the archer card is in the staging area and that text is active... all the other cards have been revealed and have entered. There is no timing information on the archer, it is not a response. So when you read the order of events all those crads are valid as they have all just entered the staging area in the same period of time as the forced text became active.

We ruled against this but the argument is sound. There is no ruling to say yay or nay on this on.

Again, pages 23-24 of the rule book specifically explains this under the heading for Forced. I think it is pretty clear that there is a timing specified:

 

"They are denoted by a bold Forced: trigger on a card. These effects initiate and resolve immediately, whenever their specified prerequisite occurs." 

 

So when the Archer is in the staging area and after the next enemy is revealed from the encounter deck, immediately deal the 1 damage and then reveal the next card (if necessary for staging/surge).

 

RE: House rules. I think they are great and am interested in variants, but when people are discussing the core rules it doesn't help confused players to use your version of surge or staging instead of what's available in the core rules/FAQ.

 

EDIT: In my previous post I mentioned that there is nothing called a Forced Response, however the FAQ does appear to use the two interchangeably. This does not change that all printed cards use the Forced: trigger and, hence, the above rules. 


Edited by entMoot, 21 July 2014 - 08:00 PM.


#33 booored

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:08 PM

 

spend less time making up your own rules, and focus on the actual rules, as written.

 

 

\my rules are WAY better.


"People should be less concerned about whether they are being insulted and more concerned if it is the truth"

#34 Dain Ironfoot

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:47 PM

 

 

spend less time making up your own rules, and focus on the actual rules, as written.

 

 

\my rules are WAY better.

 

says who? ;)


Edited by Dain Ironfoot, 21 July 2014 - 11:48 PM.


#35 booored

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:02 AM

says me, whom else has an opinion that matters to me?


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#36 danpoage

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:46 AM

That's it folks, we've reached the end of the internet. Nothing more to see here.


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#37 Mich the One

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 06:50 AM

I must say I quite enjoyed the rules discussion.

 

I feel entertained AND educated, thank you.


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