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#21 Distractionbeast

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 11:56 AM

 

 

Favor of the Lady:

 

Cost: 0

 

Attach to a hero.

 

Action: Spend 1 resource from attached hero's resource pool and exhaust Favor of the Lady to give attached hero +2 (will) until the end of the phase.

 

Increased willpower bonus with ongoing cost to allow the card to be worth including.  It's closest competition I think is from Dunedain Quest and Celebrian Stone.  My question is whether or not a single point of willpower is worth a card slot, regardless of cost.  This is my solution.  

 

 

Usually the willpower faction is more expensive than defense or attack faction. For example, allies. The allies with more wp are more expensive than allies with more defense or attack. So the attachments are the same: for example, the dunedain attachments. 1 defense costs 1 resource; 1 attack point costs 1 resource; and 1 willpower costs 2 resources.

 

So Favour of the Lady is correct.

 

 

I agree that it is correct and consistent.  My concern, as I stated, was whether it is worth a card slot to use a card with a single point of willpower.  Thus, I attempted to increase the bonus and up the cost in a particular way.  If you don't agree that it's necessary, that's fine.  :) 

 

If you like the card as printed, I'd be very curious about how many times it gets included in decks.  I, for one, have never considered it.  

 

No disrespect intended by my answer.  :)



#22 danpoage

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 12:08 PM

Favor of the Lady is particularly mediocre when you compare it to Unexpected Courage for the same cost. Granted, Unexpected Courage only has 1 copy in the Core Set, but "rarity" is not supposed to be a design factor in LCGs.

 

To be honest, I don't think that I would use your revised version of this card either. However, I definitely agree that the card as-is lacks a compelling reason to be included in any deck. Even if it only cost 1, which would be too low from a balance standpoint, I would rather include Westfold Horse-breeder or Silvan Refugee for the same cost. Chump blockers are just more useful than attachments (with basically equivalent value) in 9 of 10 situations. The fact that Spirit has cards like Unexpected Courage, Arwen, and a host of excellent Rohan allies, all at 2 cost, just dooms this card to mediocrity. Heck even Stand and Fight is much better than this card, in the sense that you can get an additional use of a 1 or 2 cost ally, as an action.


Edited by danpoage, 01 July 2014 - 12:09 PM.

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#23 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 03:03 PM

From Rulebook:

 

Some enemy and location cards award victory points
when they are defeated. When such a card leaves play,
one player should place it near his threat dial to remind
the players of the victory points when they are scoring
at the end of the game. It is recommended that one
player collects all the victory cards the players earn
during the scenario, as victory points are applied to the
score of the entire group.

 

 

It specifies only enemies and locations. That's why each player card must contain text that it's being added to the victory display.


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#24 chrsjxn

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 04:27 PM

This is just me, maybe, but I wouldn't errata cards to make them more powerful, only less.

 

Blue mountain trader should legitimately be once per round, so that players can't just rearrange all their resources at will.

 

But I don't see anything wrong with Favor of the Lady. It's a bit of a weak card, because 1 card + 2 resources (especially in Spirit!) for 1 willpower is not very efficient. Though it's less fragile than allies in most scenarios, which makes it a little better than you might expect.

 

Regardless, I think that's an example of a kind of card that must exist in a game like this: a sub-optimal card.

 

Imagine another game like LOTR:LCG, where each card adds pretty linearly to the power of things you have in play. (Outlands doesn't work like that, but playing one more dwarf doesn't exponentially increase the power of your other dwarves. Same with just about everything that isn't Outlands.) The more similar the cards are in power level and cost, the less it matters what cards you pick for your decks. You could just throw in anything, and do about as well as someone who really knows the game and puts a lot of thought into their choices.

 

But when the cards vary in power level, picking the best cards for your deck is an important skill that differentiates better players from worse.

 

And then you can consider that the power level of cards varies with the different quests. Willpower boosts are more valuable in quests that use the stat for more than just questing. And, of course, they're entirely worthless if you're just going to be doing Siege/Battle.


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#25 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 04:58 PM

I would make Favor of the Lady something like this:

 

Spirit Attachment

Cost: 2

Condition.

 

Attach to a hero.

 

Limit 1 per hero(?).

 

Attached hero gets +1 Willpower. (+2 Willpower instead if he is the only questing hero you control.)


Edited by MyNeighbourTrololo, 01 July 2014 - 04:58 PM.

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#26 Distractionbeast

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 07:59 PM

I would make Favor of the Lady something like this:

 

Spirit Attachment

Cost: 2

Condition.

 

Attach to a hero.

 

Limit 1 per hero(?).

 

Attached hero gets +1 Willpower. (+2 Willpower instead if he is the only questing hero you control.)

 

Interesting idea!



#27 NotAZombie

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 08:05 PM

This is just me, maybe, but I wouldn't errata cards to make them more powerful, only less.

 

Blue mountain trader should legitimately be once per round, so that players can't just rearrange all their resources at will.

 

But I don't see anything wrong with Favor of the Lady. It's a bit of a weak card, because 1 card + 2 resources (especially in Spirit!) for 1 willpower is not very efficient. Though it's less fragile than allies in most scenarios, which makes it a little better than you might expect.

 

Regardless, I think that's an example of a kind of card that must exist in a game like this: a sub-optimal card.

 

Imagine another game like LOTR:LCG, where each card adds pretty linearly to the power of things you have in play. (Outlands doesn't work like that, but playing one more dwarf doesn't exponentially increase the power of your other dwarves. Same with just about everything that isn't Outlands.) The more similar the cards are in power level and cost, the less it matters what cards you pick for your decks. You could just throw in anything, and do about as well as someone who really knows the game and puts a lot of thought into their choices.

 

But when the cards vary in power level, picking the best cards for your deck is an important skill that differentiates better players from worse.

 

And then you can consider that the power level of cards varies with the different quests. Willpower boosts are more valuable in quests that use the stat for more than just questing. And, of course, they're entirely worthless if you're just going to be doing Siege/Battle.

Yes and no.

 

Deckbuilding is more than just figuring out the most powerful cards, you also need cards that have synergy, cover weaknesses, counter threats from the encounter deck effectively, work well with partner decks (if applicable), ect. Almost anyone can tell you if a card is "powerful", but only the skilled deckbuilders can direct and balance that power appropriately. 

 

Therefore, if there was a game where every card was about the same power level, there would still be differentiation between skilled and non-skilled deck builders, because the skilled deck builder looks at all the things mentioned above, not just how powerful a card is in it's own vacuum. 

 

What's my point? Favor of the lady is a pretty mediocre card not only because of its lack of obvious power, but because of it's lack of synergy with other cards and because of that, without knowing future cards, it doesn't really deserve a card slot at it's current power level. I could be wrong, maybe a deckbuilder more skilled than I could find a deck where this is the best card to take up 1-3 slots for that deck, but I very much doubt it.



#28 booored

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 10:22 PM

I'd add restricted to a ton of cards. SoG and UC for example. I'd also put a hand limit of 8 cards, so you need to discard at the end of the turn if your over 8.
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#29 Nerdmeister

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:13 AM

Favor of the Lady is viable in a quest like, but not necessarily limited to, Journey to Rhosgobel where alot of treachery cards deal damage to exhausted, questing or characters with no attachments. In the instance where your 2WP but 1HP allies die off quite easily because you cannot keep readying attachments on all of them, that small +1WP, which cannot be removed by treachery as fast as your weak allies, suddenly has more worth.

Just a thought to contemplate.


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#30 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:47 AM

So, the only quest where Favor of the Lady is semi-viable is AJTR. Now that's some serious stuff, man.


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#31 karagh

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 02:10 AM

I like what you are trying to do, but I'd stick to minor changes.

 

I think Favor of the Lady would work with a cost of 1, because it's in the Willpower sphere. It would be usefull in quests with much Ally hate.

 

Power in Earth could be -2 or -3. The effect is equivalent for many locations and it won't broke high Threat other Locations.


Edited by karagh, 02 July 2014 - 02:13 AM.


#32 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 02:35 AM

I like what you are trying to do, but I'd stick to minor changes.

 

I think Favor of the Lady would work with a cost of 1, because it's in the Willpower sphere. It would be usefull in quests with much Ally hate.

 

Power in Earth could be -2 or -3. The effect is equivalent for many locations and it won't broke high Threat other Locations.

I'll stick for no changes at all. I'll just mourn those wasted card slots and design possibilities. 


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#33 Nerdmeister

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 02:40 AM

So, the only quest where Favor of the Lady is semi-viable is AJTR. Now that's some serious stuff, man.

Well I did write "not necessarily limited to".

Do try to keep up.


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#34 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 03:01 AM

 

So, the only quest where Favor of the Lady is semi-viable is AJTR. Now that's some serious stuff, man.

Well I did write "not necessarily limited to".

Do try to keep up.

 

Would raising number of quests where it is semi-viable to 2 or 3 change something? That's a rhetorical question, by the way.


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#35 Mndela

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 03:27 AM

I think the idea of a lot of player cards is for specific quests. The card is not good or bad if it runs in all scenarios. Each card depends of each scenario. For example, Ever My Heart Rises (when there are mountain locations).

So Favor of the Lady is a very good card in scenarios like: Dead Mashes, Shadow of the Past, Stone of Erech, Druadan Forest, Orc Hunting (a fanmade of mine ^^), Redhorn Gate...


Edited by Mndela, 02 July 2014 - 03:28 AM.

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#36 Mndela

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 03:36 AM

Another reason: cards are not good or bad as alone cards. They are good or bad in relation to another combos. So Favor of Lady is very good, for example, with Unexpected Courage, in, for example, Dead Mashes.


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#37 Edvando

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 03:40 AM

Dbeast, thank you for opening this topic. I really dislike cards that glue to my binders and never see play. Waste of cardboard, space, art, design, etc.

 

Mndela, I prefer when cards can be useful in many quests as possible. Some cards being better in some quest are OK. But cards that are only going to see play in one or two quests? Not a fan =/

 

I'm with alogos that we need to put things in the context and look to similar cards to help balance.

 

I'm with danpoage when he says that simple modifications are better. Because it is more elegant, easier to remember and better for the game.

 

Next reply my list of opinions on the cards that were already suggested in this topic.


Edited by Edvando, 02 July 2014 - 04:22 AM.


#38 Edvando

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 03:46 AM

Below my personal list of changes that I like and would use no problem at all.

 

Power in the Earth: -2 threat.

 

Blue Mountain Trader: Once per round.

 

Favor of the Lady: Cost 1.

 

Will of the West: Add "Victory: 1" (I dont care what the rules say)

 
Horn of Gondor: Add "Limit (3 times per round.)"
 
Legacy of Durin: Add "exhaust Legacy of Durin to"
 


#39 Edvando

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 04:19 AM

Some new suggestions:

 

*DISCLAIMER: Some of my opinions are personal taste and I will say so. So i don't expect people to agree. The other examples, yes, i care if you agree or not =]

 

Dunedain Cache: Cost 1.

 

I never saw this attachment in any deck, even online.

 

Dwalin: After Dwalin attacks and destroys an enemy, lower your threat by 1.

 

Hate that he is only used against some decks. Heroes should be generic and this Dwalin above would be awesome to play with.

 

Glorfindel (lore): Remove "once per round".

 

He cost A LOT, so his ability should be worth to put on the table, like Elrond. Maybe this help (probable not).

 

Bilbo: Draws 1 additional card in the resource phase.

 

When I play him, I am the person that want to draw more! This is personal taste.

 

Mirlond: Each hero you control gets -1 threat cost.

 

So she can see more play. Another personal taste.

 

Pippin (spirit): Remove "If each hero you control has the Hobbit trait, Pippin gains:"

 

Pippin lore is so much better and this requirement make him too much specialized to hobbit decks. I would also change his name to some less know hobbit, so he can pair up with the other Pippin and increase the hobbit deck possibilities. If you also make that the enemy can't engage anymore (like some people wrongly think him works), he would be a REALLY good deck for some decks and see more play. Maybe making Dunhere decks more viable against harder quests.

 

Thalin is playable, but I hate to put his 1 WP to quest. I would remove -1 def to +1 wp. Maybe this make him OP, but right now staging sniping is not really a good deck for most quests.

 

Brand is playable, but overshadowed by legolas that is REALLY good, so I never see him played. Make +1 HP, -1 Def, helps him, so that he can quest and be better at soaking undefended attacks and suffering through treachery cards. Also could be -1 def, -1 threat. Bard suffer the same fate of Brand, but less so. Personal taste.

 

Theoden is really underwhelming, but playable. If solo, he gives +1 WP to another hero (cos generally at least one hero will stay ready to atk/def, seeing that he works with tactics). In Multiplayer, he can be quite good, but not really cos most tactics heroes don't want to quest. So maybe +2, +3 in the best case scenario. Remember that the self +1 WP is already in his threat cost. My opinion is that he should give +1 to every tactic or rohan and don't care for printed, making song of battle a little better. Personal taste.

 

Ancient Mathon: "you draws 3 cards". Same as Bilbo, personal taste and greed.


Edited by Edvando, 02 July 2014 - 04:27 AM.


#40 alogos

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 05:36 AM

Another reason: cards are not good or bad as alone cards. They are good or bad in relation to another combos. So Favor of Lady is very good, for example, with Unexpected Courage, in, for example, Dead Mashes.

 

Yes, but 2 resource and 1 card is still high. We should adress Outlands one post or another : 2 cost, 1 card, a hell lot more powerfull than Favor of the Lady.

Also, Dunedan Quest is better, you can move it. Celebrian's Stone is +2 with a bonus for Aragorn, while being restricted so it's a balanced.

Unexpected Courage will be balanced the day readying card would be all over our card pool, which will happen one day, be it 20 years from now, or never at death of the game.






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