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#41 Kavadh

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 03:47 PM

 

 

Except the marauder is not limited to hitting an enemy once an encounter.  The doctor can make a single medicine roll to heal per character per encounter. If the marauder misses his combat hit - he just rolls again next round. Even if he hits, he can whack with his stick again next round if that one hit doesn't incapacitate the enemy. 

 

If the doctor fails his one check, too bad so sad - he's done. If he succeeds but not well enough to fully heal the character he's trying to heal, he's still done. He gets one attempt to fulfill his purpose and that is all. The marauder is as focused, it's true, but the marauder is not limited to one use - he can use his purchased talents freely as long as there is an enemy in front of him. The doctor cannot do the same.  

 

Stim application is fairly limited in that it costs so much strain. None of the other players actually wanted me to use it on them until I'd also picked up politico and inspiring rhetoric; they wanted to keep their limited strain pool for the use of their own strain costing talents. Though I'll admit that may be our playstyle - the GM responds to how we play. Since we're generally good guys, we use stun settings on our blasters as default. So most of our enemies use it in return because we've now got a rep as a knock out and capture team who only fires with deadly force if you do first. Since you can always try to escape, but dead is dead, most of our fighting is stun fighting. Which means strain is a very valuable resource. I think I used stim app once before taking IR, against a group of gangers who ambushed us with deadly force for stepping into their turf and not paying the toll for passage. 

 

All the more reason to have other characters assist in my mind and add the Boost dice to insure success.

 

In regards to your team not wanting to have stim app done that sounds like personal choice and a reason for you to advance it on the talent tree.

 

In regards to comparison to combat checks that's really apples to oranges.  A Slicer typically only gets one check to bust into a computer.  If you botch a social skills check it's over.  So it's hardly as though Medicine should be considered differently, I mean if you could just roll over and over until success is achieved, why roll at all?  An enemy in a combat encounter might win.  

 

 

I used the combat comparison in response to the marauder reference. I can just as easily make similar statements regarding other one use skills.

 

In no instance that I can think of is there another specialization that is so narrowly focused on a skill that is as easily replicated by purchased items. A stimpack costs a baseline 25 credits. You can't go out and spend 25 credits on consumable items to charm/coerce/deceive someone, hack a computer, open a lock, mod a weapon, sell a black market item, find food in the wilderness, navigate through space, get a better deal on a contract negotiation, etc.

 

Those failed rolls open up different avenues of story, not a simple unzipping of the backpack.

 

I also can't think of another specialization that has talents to modify an out of class skill. But it's really the 25 credit duplication of talents combined with no other talents to enhance other uses of skills than the aspect being duplicated that I find problematic. 

 

A scout with an investment in medicine, the Utility Belt talent, a handful of stimpacks and a medpack really doesn't lose much over the doctor with his investment in medicine, surgeon and bacta specialist. And any good doctor is going to have a medpack and a handful of stimpacks so the scout isn't even really out of pocket on gear. I am skeptical of the benefit of pressure point over the scout's combat talents and skills because the doctor with pressure point still has no defenses other than Dodge and needs to close on his enemies to use it.

 

But I will friend you if you like so I can remember to come and give a recant if I need to if I discover pressure point is a bigger benefit than I think it will be. I keep seeing people touting it as an amazing talent, but with no combat skills or other talents to back it up I'm expecting to get shot full of holes or stabbed if I try to routinely close to use it. :)



#42 Jamwes

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 04:07 PM

 

Hard to make a build fun when the dice hate you. My group sees combat quite a bit, so every little bit of healing helps us. What really made the Doctor fun for me was the Stim Application. Boosting stats and joking about becoming drug addicts was amusing.

 

Really, if you're rolling YYYG vs P and failing often it wouldn't matter what class you're playing, you're going to have a bad time. It sounds like it's time you do something to appease the dice gods, or buy a new set of dice.

 

 

I actually disagree with this.

 

Let's take stealth as an example. The scout is trying to sneak into the base and fails his roll. This can be just as fun as if he'd succeeded! Now there's lots of action as he tries to escape the guards, deal with the alarms, we all need to roleplay to come up with an alternate plan or save him if he was captured. Mind you, I'll acknowledge that successes are sweet, but generally speaking, especially with the Edge system, failure in a good group is not a bad time. Many of my best roleplaying moments have come out of failed rolls. Heck, our current campaign was completely altered in course by a series of failed attempts to follow a rival smuggler and we all ended up liking the new course better!

 

Except - now let's look at medicine to heal an injury. Failure! --- The injured person is not healed, and instead takes a stimpack. There is no roleplay there, there is no alternate story, there is nothing but a failed roll that is easily solved via a cheap and easily purchased item. 

 

Or....

 

The scout is trying to sneak into the base and fails his roll. The guards spot him and open fire. The Scout tries to shoot back, but he again fails, because the dice gods are angry. The guards keep shooting and kill him. When the Doctor doesn't pass a medicine check the patient just needs to wait some time before the Doctor can try again and/or pop stims. (However long it takes for the GM to rule another encounter has passed if there isn't any actual combat.)

 

Personally, I'd rather fall back on stims than be dead.

 

 

Except the marauder is not limited to hitting an enemy once an encounter.  The doctor can make a single medicine roll to heal per character per encounter. If the marauder misses his combat hit - he just rolls again next round. Even if he hits, he can whack with his stick again next round if that one hit doesn't incapacitate the enemy. 

 

If the doctor fails his one check, too bad so sad - he's done. If he succeeds but not well enough to fully heal the character he's trying to heal, he's still done. He gets one attempt to fulfill his purpose and that is all. The marauder is as focused, it's true, but the marauder is not limited to one use - he can use his purchased talents freely as long as there is an enemy in front of him. The doctor cannot do the same.  

 

Well, the Doctor can try again after the next fight. In my group there have been plenty of times where we're either out of stims or the day has gone long with battle. If the Doctor doesn't heal (much) then the player just hangs back some during the next fight so they aren't as likely to get shot at again. After the next fight the Doctor can try to heal them again.

 

Stim application is fairly limited in that it costs so much strain. None of the other players actually wanted me to use it on them until I'd also picked up politico and inspiring rhetoric; they wanted to keep their limited strain pool for the use of their own strain costing talents. 

 

Pick up Improved Stim Application. 1 Strain for the upgrade is cheep. If they complain at that... well... I hope your GM starts hitting you with a lot of stun weapons because it sounds like the party is running low on strain. While you're at it, pick up Supreme Stim Application. Boosting extra characteristics for Triumphs is pretty cool.

 

I haven't picked up pressure point yet because it hadn't been in character to do so, but it still seems bizarre to me that it's based around improving a skill the doctor has no class access to. Is there any other specialization that has talents geared around improving skills they don't actually have?

 

I'll be picking it up soon though because I was nearly killed by a guy who jumped me with a vibroknife a few sessions back, and my hired bodyguard read me the riot act for having no way to defend myself. He didn't seem to be appeased by being told that's what I have him around for. lol

 

 

Again, Stim Application would be pretty cool in this situation. If you have a 2 in Brawn or Agility, Stim Application makes it a 3. Rolling GGG in combat checks isn't terrible.

 

I totally understand not picking up a talent because it doesn't seem fitting to the character. My Doctor was actually Soldier/Medic/Doctor so that I could get the Brawl skill as a class skill and it was my concept all along to be punching people out. Sounds like your character has the perfect reason to pick up Pressure Point now. Even untrained you can still be a threat to a random thug off the street.

 

I hope these conversations are helping you come up with different ways to use your Doctor or give you insight into the abilities already present in the career. I went through the same thing with my Politico. I was trying to use Scathing Tirade as my only attack. My problem was just the opposite of yours, I kept rolling nothing but successes. Which was great because it meant I could always hit bad guys, but it sucked because when only one or two were in range I was only doing one damage to each. I needed advantages to really cause some damage to them.


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#43 awayputurwpn

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 04:14 PM

Kavadh, the doctor has access to the Brawl skill. He just pays +5 XP for each rank since it's not a class skill. 

 

And even so, like 2P51 says, you Stim App yourself (for example) and increase your Brawn to 3...now you're rolling a decent combat check with some decent damage (3+ranks in medicine+Success, all of which ignores the target's Soak).

 

Bad rolls can affect anyone. But they don't mean anything more to a doctor than to any other character. It seems like you've simply got the short end of the stick on dice luck, and that sucks, but there should be enough info on the narrative dice for your character to contribute in some way to the fun of the session.



#44 Kavadh

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 06:03 PM

 

Well, the Doctor can try again after the next fight. In my group there have been plenty of times where we're either out of stims or the day has gone long with battle. If the Doctor doesn't heal (much) then the player just hangs back some during the next fight so they aren't as likely to get shot at again. After the next fight the Doctor can try to heal them again. 

 

 

Interesting. We've never had multiple combat encounters without time to heal up in between.

 

From the context of your question, it may be that there is more group dynamic interpretation going on to affect our view of the doctor than I'd at first suspected. Are you interpreting each individual fight as an encounter? Meaning - if you are clearing out a single floor base, do you count each room as a separate encounter? We would count the entire base as one encounter, not each individual room/fight.

 

If you are counting each room as an encounter, and thus new opportunity to make a medicine check, and we are counting the entire base as one encounter thus there being only one roll, naturally you and I will have vastly different perspectives on the weight of the skill and associated talents. And we'll never come to an agreement because in our individual experiences, the "value" of the skill really is different.

 

 

Pick up Improved Stim Application. 1 Strain for the upgrade is cheep. If they complain at that... well... I hope your GM starts hitting you with a lot of stun weapons because it sounds like the party is running low on strain. While you're at it, pick up Supreme Stim Application. Boosting extra characteristics for Triumphs is pretty cool.

 

I commented in a previous post that most of our fighting is stun fighting, so strain is super valuable. Our party is made up of mostly good guys, so we use stun settings on our blasters by default. We now have a reputation as being 'knock out and capture' guys who only respond lethally if you attack lethally first. So by and large our opponents attack with stun because if we win and capture them, they can always try to escape. And heck, we often just let people go. That base for example, we just knocked everyone out, took what we were after, then left them all alive and otherwise unharmed. We didn't loot or even take their weapons. But dead is dead. So opponents who know us shoot to stun, and many of them return the favor and don't take our stuff after they knock us out if they win.

 

Obviously not all opponents are that nice. But right now we're operating out of a central base so most of the people we're dealing with we know and vice versa.

 

That may be why I am enjoying my politico abilities far more than my doctor side, as you put it that way. By largely stun fighting, inspiring rhetoric is our healing, and the politico is the doctor. I hadn't thought it in that way until just now. I guess it hadn't occurred to me that stun settings might not be most people's default.  :lol:

 

 

 

Again, Stim Application would be pretty cool in this situation. If you have a 2 in Brawn or Agility, Stim Application makes it a 3. Rolling GGG in combat checks isn't terrible.

 

I totally understand not picking up a talent because it doesn't seem fitting to the character. My Doctor was actually Soldier/Medic/Doctor so that I could get the Brawl skill as a class skill and it was my concept all along to be punching people out. Sounds like your character has the perfect reason to pick up Pressure Point now. Even untrained you can still be a threat to a random thug off the street.

 

I hope these conversations are helping you come up with different ways to use your Doctor or give you insight into the abilities already present in the career. I went through the same thing with my Politico. I was trying to use Scathing Tirade as my only attack. My problem was just the opposite of yours, I kept rolling nothing but successes. Which was great because it meant I could always hit bad guys, but it sucked because when only one or two were in range I was only doing one damage to each. I needed advantages to really cause some damage to them.

 

 

 This is funny because I don't have Scathing Tirade. I have no offensive abilities at all - all I do is heal and support. That's why tactical foes start concentrating fire at me. I keep the rest of the team up and running, so long as you're not shooting to kill it's very difficult to take anyone down with me standing right there handing out blue dice and strain like candies with Supreme Inspiring Rhetoric.  :lol:

 

For some bizarro reason, I can only reliably roll success when I am using IR. I have the same dice pools for leadership as I do for medicine, but medicine always fails and leadership always succeeds!


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#45 evileeyore

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 07:57 PM

I roll 3 yellows and 1 green for my medicine roll. And quite frequently, I fail that check.

 

 
Yeah, I've discovered Yellows really suck for rolling successes.  You need to get more players assisting you to pick up some extra blue dice.  That helps out a lot... I do this for Mechanics checks as my Mechanics is 3y1g, even 2B is a tremendous bonus.
 
Of course in my group I'm the 'medic' as an Outlaw Tech, Mechanic, Splicer... with int 4 and 1 rank in Medicine... and I'm probably doing as good a job healing as you are (I heal far, far less Strain than you would on a success, but I get successes).
 
The Doctor tree really does sound terribly built.  So many of my skills (aside from Medicine) and Talents are employed frequently in almost every encounter.
 
I'll have to look at Medic and see if there's some way to rebalance Doctor for when I run (my players are more likely to want Medic anyway... but still... just in case).
 
 
The easiest might be to just Doctor get free rerolls some way.


#46 Jamwes

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 07:30 AM

 

 

Well, the Doctor can try again after the next fight. In my group there have been plenty of times where we're either out of stims or the day has gone long with battle. If the Doctor doesn't heal (much) then the player just hangs back some during the next fight so they aren't as likely to get shot at again. After the next fight the Doctor can try to heal them again. 

 

Interesting. We've never had multiple combat encounters without time to heal up in between.

 

From the context of your question, it may be that there is more group dynamic interpretation going on to affect our view of the doctor than I'd at first suspected. Are you interpreting each individual fight as an encounter? Meaning - if you are clearing out a single floor base, do you count each room as a separate encounter? We would count the entire base as one encounter, not each individual room/fight.

 

I believe the CRB states that an encounter is when you enter structured play and it ends when structured play ends. Our group is looking at this from a D&D 4E perspective, which is to say we hop out of structured play after we clear a room. This gives us time to heal, search bodies, and do a little recon on what lays ahead without having to worry about turns and rounds.

 

With how the game is written, I can completly see keeping things in structured play during an entire base. Afterall, wouldn't the bad guys inside hear the fighting going on around them and come after you? If you're moving quick to clear a building there is no time to pause. In a firefight a minute (length of a round) is a long time. Perhaps my group has a more game-y interpetation and your group is more realistic.

 

Perhaps you should chat with the GM and group about taking some breathers while on a mission. Once you secure a location take a quick breather and hop out of structured play. I'm imagining the group making it to a room that is easily defended. A guy or two guarding each entrance to watch for bad guys. Even naritively popping a few rounds off at them to keep them at bay while the doctor can do his thing. This would give time for the group to engage in witty banter and check their weapons. You see this quite a bit in movies. After a big fight the team checks their ammo and makes sure their gear is in check before pushing forward. This would give a quick moment for the doctor to do his thing and try to heal up the team and reset the heal counter for the next fight.

 

Also, the GM could just count an encouter over after the fight ends, even if the next group of badies are right around the corner and you don't have time to heal. That would just mean that you're struggling to get to each guy that needs healing during the fight, but you said that you didn't have any offensive abilities anyway so the team won't be missing out on your gun. This also has a cinimatic feel. The Doctor running through combat, dodging shots, and getting to the next guy who could use help. If you count a new encounter when the next firefight starts, then you can have the fun of running to each injured guy all over again.

 

It sounds like you could use a few more encounters during your adventuring day to allow for more opportuneties to heal. Quite honestly, perhaps my group has too many encounters in a day. (We rely on our Medic for healing and only used stim packs in emergiencies or if it'll bring us back to half for easy medicine checks.) Question for you, how many characters in the group have abilities that are once per encounter? If you're the only one then it'll be easier to talk to the GM about how he defines an encounter. If there are other people who have encounter abilities, then you'll have to think about how increasing how often those can be used will also affect your game.

 

This is why we talk things through instead of saying "you're wrong." Now we know where the crux of your opinion lies, which is that you have less oppertunities to use your abilties than if you were playing in my group.

 

 

 

Pick up Improved Stim Application. 1 Strain for the upgrade is cheep. If they complain at that... well... I hope your GM starts hitting you with a lot of stun weapons because it sounds like the party is running low on strain. While you're at it, pick up Supreme Stim Application. Boosting extra characteristics for Triumphs is pretty cool.

 

I commented in a previous post that most of our fighting is stun fighting, so strain is super valuable. Our party is made up of mostly good guys, so we use stun settings on our blasters by default. We now have a reputation as being 'knock out and capture' guys who only respond lethally if you attack lethally first. So by and large our opponents attack with stun because if we win and capture them, they can always try to escape. And heck, we often just let people go. That base for example, we just knocked everyone out, took what we were after, then left them all alive and otherwise unharmed. We didn't loot or even take their weapons. But dead is dead. So opponents who know us shoot to stun, and many of them return the favor and don't take our stuff after they knock us out if they win.

 

Obviously not all opponents are that nice. But right now we're operating out of a central base so most of the people we're dealing with we know and vice versa.

 

That may be why I am enjoying my politico abilities far more than my doctor side, as you put it that way. By largely stun fighting, inspiring rhetoric is our healing, and the politico is the doctor. I hadn't thought it in that way until just now. I guess it hadn't occurred to me that stun settings might not be most people's default.  :lol:

 

Again, this is a difference of play style. My group has been burned by people escaping so many times in past games that we'd rather kill the baddies in the fight. Someone unconsious can always wake up and go find or scream for help. It takes so long to start bounding and gagging everyone we encounter to ensure they don't make our situation worse. Our problem is leaving someone alive when we want to question someone. lol Also, we like fighting at longer than short range, which is the limit on most stun weapons. Although, like you say, if these baddies are people you know, then leaving them alive is probably a good idea. You start killing them and they'll just come find you and kill you as well. A live and let live philosophy.

 

However, one strain isn't that bad. All it takes is one advantage to heal that up. Work your position in the initiative order to go just before the next player you're going to give the stim to and boost them. Then, when they go right after you they can easily spend an advantage to recover that one strain. The upgrade should make it easier to recover that one point of strain for that turn and it's nothing but gravy all turns after that.

 

Remember, Stim Application lasts for an encounter. If the GM is making encounters last for an entire day of fighting, then your stim will last that long as well. You boost a shooter's Agility and it'll more than pay for itself in strain recovery and/or damage output. An extra or better die will help with every shot they take. It will help with generating successes and advantages for the entire encounter. I can completly understand turning down the 4 strain version, but it seems silly to me to turn down the 1 strain version. Do they often spend a second maneuver to aim? The second maneuver costs two strain. Suffer the one strain from Stim Application and don't take a second maneuver. I'd rather take an upgrade for 1 strain than a boost die for two strain. Then, the next turn they'll still have the upgrade and can choose to take the second maneuver for the 2 strain and are coming out ahead.

 

 

 

I hope these conversations are helping you come up with different ways to use your Doctor or give you insight into the abilities already present in the career. I went through the same thing with my Politico. I was trying to use Scathing Tirade as my only attack. My problem was just the opposite of yours, I kept rolling nothing but successes. Which was great because it meant I could always hit bad guys, but it sucked because when only one or two were in range I was only doing one damage to each. I needed advantages to really cause some damage to them.

 

 

 This is funny because I don't have Scathing Tirade. I have no offensive abilities at all - all I do is heal and support. That's why tactical foes start concentrating fire at me. I keep the rest of the team up and running, so long as you're not shooting to kill it's very difficult to take anyone down with me standing right there handing out blue dice and strain like candies with Supreme Inspiring Rhetoric.  :lol:

 

For some bizarro reason, I can only reliably roll success when I am using IR. I have the same dice pools for leadership as I do for medicine, but medicine always fails and leadership always succeeds!

 

 

I have a love/hate relationship with the dice. Last night, after True Aim, weapon mods, and party boosts I rolled YYYYGBBB vs R and almost missed with a net result of 1 success and 9 advantages. The Medic in our game has given up on shooting because he never hits on his YGB vs P. He's pretty much doing what you're doing by picking up Commander:Tactician for Field Commander just so that he has something productive to do in combat.

 

As they say, Geek the Mage. That's what you get for being support against smart enemies. They realize you're the real problem over the gun toting fighters. That at least shows that you're doing something productive. :D  Keep up the good work. I hope this post helps you figure out a few more things about Doctor.



#47 evileeyore

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 09:19 AM

I have a love/hate relationship with the dice. Last night, after True Aim, weapon mods, and party boosts I rolled YYYYGBBB vs R and almost missed with a net result of 1 success and 9 advantages. The Medic in our game has given up on shooting because he never hits on his YGB vs P. He's pretty much doing what you're doing by picking up Commander:Tactician for Field Commander just so that he has something productive to do in combat.

 

I'm beginning to think allowing Advantages to be traded straight out for Successes might be a good house rule.  In our games I can't even count the number of times a "highly skilled, very competent" (3Y1G) character has failed Easy and Average skill checks but ended with 4+ Advantages and a Triumph.



#48 Kavadh

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 11:28 AM

 

Let me state first that at this point, this conversation has aided me greatly, and resolved the large part of the problems I was having. I will go into detail the whys and howfors as I address your points.

 

Thank you to you and 2P51 because it's been the points you both have brought up that have done it.

 

Now, that said...

 

I believe the CRB states that an encounter is when you enter structured play and it ends when structured play ends. Our group is looking at this from a D&D 4E perspective, which is to say we hop out of structured play after we clear a room. This gives us time to heal, search bodies, and do a little recon on what lays ahead without having to worry about turns and rounds.

 

With how the game is written, I can completly see keeping things in structured play during an entire base. Afterall, wouldn't the bad guys inside hear the fighting going on around them and come after you? If you're moving quick to clear a building there is no time to pause. In a firefight a minute (length of a round) is a long time. Perhaps my group has a more game-y interpetation and your group is more realistic.

 

 

None of us like D&D. We don't like the combat managing. This method wouldn't work for us. To all of us, it makes far more sense that one encounter lasts as long as we, the characters, keep moving in the same scene. It might be an entire base, an entire floor, a room, a hallway - an "encounter" fluctuates based upon the current circumstances. Which we're happy with. 

 

 

Perhaps you should chat with the GM and group about taking some breathers while on a mission. Once you secure a location take a quick breather and hop out of structured play. I'm imagining the group making it to a room that is easily defended. A guy or two guarding each entrance to watch for bad guys. Even naritively popping a few rounds off at them to keep them at bay while the doctor can do his thing. This would give time for the group to engage in witty banter and check their weapons. You see this quite a bit in movies. After a big fight the team checks their ammo and makes sure their gear is in check before pushing forward. This would give a quick moment for the doctor to do his thing and try to heal up the team and reset the heal counter for the next fight.

 

Also, the GM could just count an encouter over after the fight ends, even if the next group of badies are right around the corner and you don't have time to heal. That would just mean that you're struggling to get to each guy that needs healing during the fight, but you said that you didn't have any offensive abilities anyway so the team won't be missing out on your gun. This also has a cinimatic feel. The Doctor running through combat, dodging shots, and getting to the next guy who could use help. If you count a new encounter when the next firefight starts, then you can have the fun of running to each injured guy all over again.

 

This is sort of addressed above. But -

 

Having identified that the rules are vague enough that people identify and define the terms so very differently, it comes down to which interpretation gives the most satisfaction for the group's playstyle.

 

I am not unhappy enough with the doctor that I want to go through the hassle of trying to redefine what constitutes an encounter for our group. Our "encounter" provides me with a greater gaming satisfaction than my problems cause me frustration. I think that attempting to redefine it to "fix" these problems would only cause a greater level of frustration. 

 

 

 

It sounds like you could use a few more encounters during your adventuring day to allow for more opportuneties to heal. Quite honestly, perhaps my group has too many encounters in a day. (We rely on our Medic for healing and only used stim packs in emergiencies or if it'll bring us back to half for easy medicine checks.) Question for you, how many characters in the group have abilities that are once per encounter? If you're the only one then it'll be easier to talk to the GM about how he defines an encounter. If there are other people who have encounter abilities, then you'll have to think about how increasing how often those can be used will also affect your game.

 

This is why we talk things through instead of saying "you're wrong." Now we know where the crux of your opinion lies, which is that you have less oppertunities to use your abilties than if you were playing in my group.

 

 

I am indeed the only one with once per encounter abilities. But as you comment below..

 

 

 

 

Remember, Stim Application lasts for an encounter. If the GM is making encounters last for an entire day of fighting, then your stim will last that long as well. You boost a shooter's Agility and it'll more than pay for itself in strain recovery and/or damage output. An extra or better die will help with every shot they take. It will help with generating successes and advantages for the entire encounter. I can completly understand turning down the 4 strain version, but it seems silly to me to turn down the 1 strain version. Do they often spend a second maneuver to aim? The second maneuver costs two strain. Suffer the one strain from Stim Application and don't take a second maneuver. I'd rather take an upgrade for 1 strain than a boost die for two strain. Then, the next turn they'll still have the upgrade and can choose to take the second maneuver for the 2 strain and are coming out ahead.

 

 

It works out for us with Stim Application. I think that you  missed my comment about "before I picked up Inspiring Rhetoric..." There are no issues now with players wanting stim app. In fact, one of the players is debating picking up some new obligation with "junkie" because he's that addicted to the doctor's "drugs." Hah, it's pretty funny. He's like, "Hey Doc, I'm going gambling ... can you give me some of that stuff..." "Hey Doc, I'm a better pilot if you give me that..." "Hey, Doc... we're walking down the street... I trip less with that juice..."

 

As a party we have removed his access to all group funds. Which is absolutely hysterical because he's the ship's captain. He owns the ship but we've blocked his access to all funds and resources.

 

This right here is actually what defines my frustration with the narrow focus of the Doctor. He's not based around medicine - he's based around using medicine to heal. There is no RP value in such a narrow focus of an otherwise broad skill, especially when that exact area of focus is easily replicated with a 25 credit item. I mean, think about that for a moment. 3 levels of Surgeon ... Three talents ... And you automatically beat that with your first and second stimpack each day, and equal it with your third for a total of 75 credits. That's just obscene

 

Stim Application, whether it succeeds or fails, provides openings for roleplay and humor. Healing wounds ... really doesn't.  I don't care if I fail with a stim app roll because either way it's funny. I care with a healing roll because either way it's boring.  I have 3 levels of Surgeon and 2 levels of Bacta Specialist. Which ultimately, boils down to 5 talents and 50xp of no roleplay value that can be cheaply duplicated. Grit and Resolve provide no roleplay value either really (except those rare moments when the Doc takes a full on point blank stun blast to the face and just stands there making smart assed comments), but it doesn't bug me the way Surgeon does because there's no quick and easy way to buy the same benefit.

 

But Stim App + Supreme Inspiring Rhetoric is really great. As a party, we have no standard tactics because sometimes we want the guys with Quick Strike to go first, other times we want my bonus dice right off. Other times it's a really tough and agonizing call. And that, to me, is what makes a truly successful ability.  

 

 

 

 

I have a love/hate relationship with the dice. Last night, after True Aim, weapon mods, and party boosts I rolled YYYYGBBB vs R and almost missed with a net result of 1 success and 9 advantages. The Medic in our game has given up on shooting because he never hits on his YGB vs P. He's pretty much doing what you're doing by picking up Commander:Tactician for Field Commander just so that he has something productive to do in combat.

 

As they say, Geek the Mage. That's what you get for being support against smart enemies. They realize you're the real problem over the gun toting fighters. That at least shows that you're doing something productive. :D  Keep up the good work. I hope this post helps you figure out a few more things about Doctor.

 

 

Yeah, I only shoot when I'm low on strain and I'm hoping for advantages to get a few points of strain back. lol I'd been planning on picking up Marshall, but after seeing the reports on it by people who've bought the book already (my flgs doesn't have it yet :(  ) ... I will most likely end up just picking up a combat skill with Well Rounded.

 

It did help. I'm still dissatisfied with the design of the doctor, but it's caused me to evaluate the pros and cons of playstyle and perspective. At the end of the day, I have too much fun with the way we interpret encounters and how we play to want to try and muck around to improve the flaws that are created. But at least now I am cognizant of other options, and I'm knowingly making that choice.

 

I think I mentioned geek the mage with Kavadh playing the part of the mage in my first or second post in this thread. I've been writing such walls of text though that I suspect much of what I'm saying is being lost in my own verbosity.  :lol: 

 

I feel that the doctor doesn't get as much as other specializations do on a point per point evaluation - but this conversation has made me aware of how much that evaluation is weighted for the way we play. I don't know why it never occurred to me that if we fight mainly with stun, naturally the wound healing is going to be weak. That's embarrassing, that is.   :)



#49 evileeyore

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 01:30 PM

I feel that the doctor doesn't get as much as other specializations do on a point per point evaluation - but this conversation has made me aware of how much that evaluation is weighted for the way we play. I don't know why it never occurred to me that if we fight mainly with stun, naturally the wound healing is going to be weak. That's embarrassing, that is.   :)

 

I don't think my group would get much out of the Doctor either.  As I mentioned up thread, I'm our team's 'medic' and I'm playing a Technician (Outlaw Tech, Mechanic, Splicer).  I do plenty of healing (1Y3G1B) after you toss one Stim on the heaviest wounded guy (free one from the Medpac!).

 

If there was a similar "problem" with Mechanic or another "support" class I could see this just being a case of "too much combat class goodness"...  okay... hang on.  I'll admit a dedicated Slicer (and probably Scholar) might feel a bit under appreciated as well.

 

 

The "Doctor Issue" has gotten me thinking about this.  I'll have to canoodle it for a while.


Edited by evileeyore, 13 August 2014 - 01:30 PM.


#50 Kavadh

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 02:07 PM

 

I feel that the doctor doesn't get as much as other specializations do on a point per point evaluation - but this conversation has made me aware of how much that evaluation is weighted for the way we play. I don't know why it never occurred to me that if we fight mainly with stun, naturally the wound healing is going to be weak. That's embarrassing, that is.   :)

 

I don't think my group would get much out of the Doctor either.  As I mentioned up thread, I'm our team's 'medic' and I'm playing a Technician (Outlaw Tech, Mechanic, Splicer).  I do plenty of healing (1Y3G1B) after you toss one Stim on the heaviest wounded guy (free one from the Medpac!).

 

If there was a similar "problem" with Mechanic or another "support" class I could see this just being a case of "too much combat class goodness"...  okay... hang on.  I'll admit a dedicated Slicer (and probably Scholar) might feel a bit under appreciated as well.

 

 

The "Doctor Issue" has gotten me thinking about this.  I'll have to canoodle it for a while.

 

 

I think the main problem the slicer is going to run into is "defensive slicing." Once again, a significant portion of their talent tree is devoted to such a narrow aspect of a skill. But at least you can't defend your computer systems with a 25 credit common item!  :D

 

Another thing that bugs me with the Doctor is that all of the "natural" talents that reroll (Natural Charmer, Natural Negotiator, Natural Brawler, etc) allow for at least two skills - except the Doctor's. He gets only one rerolled skill - Medicine.

 

I don't see the scholar as having much issue unless the GM doesn't provide opportunities to interact with institutions of knowledge or learning. The scholar isn't as narrowly focused. and Well Rounded is pretty spiffy. I don't think any of the specializations are as narrowly focused on one single aspect of a single skill as is the Doctor. Even the Medic gets Well Rounded to fill out other areas of play.

 

Heck, I play a Marauder in another game, and that's a narrow focused class. But it somehow doesn't feel as limited. But as I mentioned above, at this point I'm not even sure if that's the class anymore, or the way we're playing the game. We only have one combat a session, if that, and the vast majority of the ones we do have are stun battles. We're also all support characters, and had to hire a combat NPC for when we needed to fight. I spend more time making drugs than I do healing anyone, so naturally I'm going to be frustrated that my talents are revolved around healing rather than generic uses of medicine that can be used for making drugs.   :lol:



#51 evileeyore

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 04:25 PM

I think the main problem the slicer is going to run into is "defensive slicing." Once again, a significant portion of their talent tree is devoted to such a narrow aspect of a skill. But at least you can't defend your computer systems with a 25 credit common item!  :D

Truth.... but I doubt I'll worry. I mostly picked up the Tree for Stealth In Class (pays for itself really) and a couple of "low hanging Talents" (Grit and Bypass Security so far).

I don't see my group as the "defensive" type... but if I ever have a dearth of EXP laying around, I'll no doubt fill out the tree (I like a few of the top tier abilities it has). I'm just doubt we'll be playing that long.
 

Another thing that bugs me with the Doctor is that all of the "natural" talents that reroll (Natural Charmer, Natural Negotiator, Natural Brawler, etc) allow for at least two skills - except the Doctor's. He gets only one rerolled skill - Medicine.

 

You could talk your ST in letting you get 2 rerolls maybe?
 

I spend more time making drugs than I do healing anyone, so naturally I'm going to be frustrated that my talents are revolved around healing rather than generic uses of medicine that can be used for making drugs.   :lol:

 

Are you making these drugs out of combat?  Or is this just the Stim App?  If not... you might talk the ST into letting you make Stims and such, so you can at least be serving to cut costs.  Might also talk the ST into allowing your Surgeon boost to apply to stabbing people with Stim Packs, at least then the Healing is kinda coming from you...



#52 Kavadh

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 07:46 PM

Are you making these drugs out of combat?  Or is this just the Stim App?  If not... you might talk the ST into letting you make Stims and such, so you can at least be serving to cut costs.  Might also talk the ST into allowing your Surgeon boost to apply to stabbing people with Stim Packs, at least then the Healing is kinda coming from you...

 

 

There are talents to do that last part with stim packs in the Medic's tree, so I shouldn't get it for free. I just do it as a maneuver so everyone else can keep shooting. 

 

And yeah, I am making them out of combat. I specialize in knockout drugs. Our scout slips spiked mickeys into our target's drinks when we need to extract someone from public places. I also make knockout darts and the equivalent to chloroform cloths for close range work. It seems like such an easy use of medicine that it's a real shame they decided to go with such a limited aspect of medicine in the talents.

 

Although there is an argument to be made that stim application is the drug creation... At this point after this conversation I'm much less dissatisfied with the talent tree. It's really only the cheap and abundant stim packs that bothers me at the moment. 

 

I am tempted to try and design a new specialization though. Give it talents to create drugs, maybe something like "Bedside Manner" that would utilize the doctor's social skills to gain a blue die on charm checks, snake the scholar talent and change it to institutions of medicine, or perhaps something that would aid in dealing with criminal figures who would want a street doctor... could be interesting. 



#53 evileeyore

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 07:52 PM

I am tempted to try and design a new specialization though. Give it talents to create drugs, maybe something like "Bedside Manner" that would utilize the doctor's social skills to gain a blue die on charm checks, snake the scholar talent and change it to institutions of medicine, or perhaps something that would aid in dealing with criminal figures who would want a street doctor... could be interesting.

DO it!

I know when I'm done writing up Droid Wrangler, I'll be posting it for critique.

#54 Jamwes

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:46 AM

Kavadh, I'm glad you're able to find new perspective the Doctor tree and that you're group has learned to embrace Stim Application. Some final thoughts on the healing talents. I'm sure my group plays a lot differently than a lot of other groups out there. If a character doesn't take much more than 15 wounds in a day (maximum healing from stims) and has money to keep buying stims, then the Doctor tree doesn't do much for you. Healing better only goes so far when you aren't getting that hurt. It's like playing a pilot when you're only in your starship every once in a while. Your mileage depends on how much it comes up in your game. In my group, adding a Doctor was like going to easy mode. We never worried about stims and were always at full health, even while taking a lot of damage through many fights. That being said, I think that Medic is a better tree for healing because I'd rather have better stims than Bacta healing. Doctor is alright if you're willing to also dump XP into the Social skills and figure out something to do in combat. That being said, I think Politico was a good move since you guys suffer strain more than wounds.



#55 Jamwes

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:54 AM

Hey Kavadh, have you checked out Far Horizons? The new super talent might also be what you're looking for with heal checks. You can reduce the difficulty down to easy to career skill checks. There are upgrades to reduce it to simple and other nifty stuff. Might be worth looking at for solving your Medicine woes.



#56 Kavadh

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:05 AM

Hey Kavadh, have you checked out Far Horizons? The new super talent might also be what you're looking for with heal checks. You can reduce the difficulty down to easy to career skill checks. There are upgrades to reduce it to simple and other nifty stuff. Might be worth looking at for solving your Medicine woes.

 

No, my local gaming store doesn't have it yet. :(

 

But I'm more interested in the other talent I think. I don't heal enough to worry about it - the free stimpack from my medpack is usually enough to handle our healing needs. I am much more the face than the doctor. I use the socials far more often and to much greater effect, and there is far more roleplay in situations using Charm, Negotiate or Leadership than there is in healing medicine rolls.

 

That's what I'm frustrated with more than anything, stimpack accessibility obviating so much of the need for healing. But this thread has helped me immensely, in that it helped me pinpoint precisely what it was that I felt the Doctor tree was missing. So now I say - Hey! I don't work for FFG, but I am a game designer! I'll just make my own Street Chemist specialization! My GM is on board with my basic outline so far, although he changed the class skills I'd picked. I'd picked Knowledge (Underworld), Knowledge (Xenology), Medicine and Charm - He had me swap Charm for Negotiation.

 

Though I'll admit that one is tempting for those politico charm checks. :>


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#57 Jamwes

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:58 AM

Kavadh, I'm unsure of the rules, can you take more than one of those super Talents? If so, take them both! ;)

 

When I made my first EotE character I wasn't impressed with the Doctor spec. I thought it was a mish-mash of a diluted mess. The skills didn't synergize with any of the talents. The main skill which you get talents for (Medicine) uses Int while the rest of the skills use several different stats. This conversation has helped me better understand the Doctor spec as well. Sure, there are no talents to improve your social skills, but that's the secret objective of this spec. You can't look at it as a Doctor, just a Doctor, and nothing but a Doctor. I think a player has better success with the class if they look at it as a Face first and Doctor second. Take a 3 in Presence, Inteligence, and Cunning. (Perhaps a 4 in Int if your Species can allow it, since Medicine is the point for Doctor.) Then buy up the Social skills until you're a competent Face for the party. Charm, Deception, Leadership, Negotiation, and Streetwise. Perhaps even Cool. The true strength and versitility of this Spec is the skills, not the Talents. Spend the time and XP to get those skills up to 3 or 4. That's how this class was designed to be played. The only social skill you're missing out on is Coercion, which you can get if you dip into Politico. Same can be said about the Scholar and the new Colonist careers. If you want to be the Face for the party, play a Colonist and buy the skills. The talents can be secondary until you get your talents in line. This realization just hit me thanks to this conversation. Almost makes me want to play another Colonist.

 

Good luck on your Chemist spec! I hope it works out the way you'd like. I take it AoR Engineer: Scientest didn't quite fit your needs either. If I had to guess, Street Chemist sounds like someone who knows how to make/cut drugs and get them moved onto the street. I enjoy stories of a good guy chemist caught up in the underworld like Breaking Bad and Layer Cake. Were you thinking of sharing the spec on here? I suppose that's a topic for another thread now that we've diverted far away from simply discussing Heal Checks.



#58 evileeyore

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 12:42 PM

So now I say - Hey! I don't work for FFG, but I am a game designer! I'll just make my own Street Chemist specialization! My GM is on board with my basic outline so far, although he changed the class skills I'd picked. I'd picked Knowledge (Underworld), Knowledge (Xenology), Medicine and Charm - He had me swap Charm for Negotiation.

I for one am keenly interested in how it turns out!




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