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Thoughts on Hammer and Hold and Legions of Darkness


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#1 Westonard

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 12:35 PM

WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, I got my copies of both expansions today. I was wrong, the small disks do have three of each. The one un revealed VC disk was the Black Coach, which is a medium elite (that they give two of, which I will get into later) Cost 12, 4 movement, 3 attack/counter attack, 4 toughness, 2 wounds Cavalry, Fear, Impact 2, when empowered gains 1 movement and flying 

 

The dwarf disks consist of the Thunderers, cost 8, 4 movement, 2 attack/counter attack, 5 toughness, missile, medium range, 2 dice, 4 melee

 

Gyrocopter (Elite, 2 of them) 4 movement, 4 attack/counterattack, 4 toughness, 2 wounds

 

Flying, 12 cost mobile, stalwart, ranged attack medium 1 die, 4 melee damage

 

Karak Hirin Miners 7 cost, 3 movement, 3 attack, 3 counter attack, 5 toughness, has "This disk scan reinforce overlapping any terrain if it does not pin an enemy" Which I take to mean it can cause terrain to allow reinforcements like the Ruined Windmill Which means that it can reinforce from terrain as long as it doesn't pin an enemy. Another version of Flank, but for dwarves.

 

New Scenarios: 

 

Advancing Lines Top: Deal 1 extra deployment card per player, each player must create 2 deployment zones Bottom: Score 5 victory points per opponent for each of your disks overlapping an enemy deployment zone

 

Charge! Top Each disk gains 1 movement Bottom Score 5 victory points per opponent for each of your disks overlapping an enemy deployment zone

 

Terrain: 

 

Gardens of Mort Rough, Vampire caster disks overlapping this terrain gain reanimate 1

 

Farmstead Cover, Disks overlapping this terrain gain stalwart

 

Dwarf Forge: Defensive, Cover, If a player controls this terrain, ally dwarf heroes gain Runesmith

 

Mine Entrance, Fortified, when you place this terrain you may deploy 1 small or medium disk overlapping it

 

Special Scenarios: 

 

Fight in the Underway

 

A small or medium disk overlapping a terrain piece can take a move action to move to any other terrain piece. The controlling player then places the disk overlapping that terrain piece

 

In addition to normal victory conditions, if a player controls more than two terrain pieces at the end of a round, he wins the game

 

Stratagems

 

Each army gains 1 additional command card

 

During his resolve command cards step, a player can use one of his cards activations to remove an activation token from a cavalry, infantry, or missile ally within medium range of one of his heroes. Using this ability does not activate that hero.

 

Normal victory conditions

 

New Abilities

 

Stealth Treat this unit as always overlapping terrain with cover

 

Poison Remove this token in place of of damage tokens, remove it if a unit would be dealt a wound

 

New Deployment Zones

 

All In 6, Cannot reinforce this zone

 

Pallisade Disks overlapping this zone gain Stalwart

 

 

Edit: Fixed a formatting error, and added deployment zones


Edited by Westonard, 26 June 2014 - 07:12 PM.

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#2 Westonard

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 12:45 PM

Honestly, looking at what I got, I do sincerely regret buying two of each expansion. The Balance/Ratio for casters in the new armies compared to the core is thrown out the window, and I stand by what I have said before. You will not have a need for 3 engineers, rune smiths, or aspiring necromancers. Likewise, while it is great they give two of the black coaches, or the gyrocopters, the number of extra activation, wound, empowerment, poison, and reanimation tokens in each box is excessive. 

 

The new terrain is interesting, but given how reanimate works and the limitations of Garden of Mort, the Rune Forge blows it out of the water for better race specific terrain to say nothing of their other sides.

 

The vampire counts are at a disadvantage in ranged firepower; they have none. So any army with range will pick them apart before they close. You don't even have to close, if you have a mobile heavy army you can just whittle away at them for a couple turns, if you get the terrain set up, three turns at least, depending on your faction, army, and command card set up. 

 

The dark elf corsairs got a little better with Stealth, because now they can't scatter back onto themselves with their one ranged die. (Assuming you don't have rain of arrows scenario)  I'm dumb and mis remembered how Cover works and how scatters work.

 

If they follow this format disk count for the next expansions, I will likely get one of each box, and if I feel that I absolutely have to have two/three more disks of that one unit, then I will get the individual army from Amazon or Ebay for 5 dollars.


Edited by Westonard, 26 June 2014 - 07:14 PM.

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#3 Veruca

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:10 PM

Thanks for the heads up. I've cancelled my 2nd copy of each box, and will wait and see if I think it's going to be worth it or not. :)



#4 Jake Strangeway

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:20 PM

Thanks for the preview - two questions:

 

Poison Remove this token in place of of damage tokens, remove it if a unit would be dealt a wound

 

So if a unit does 3 damage and has the keyword Poison, you place a 3 damage marker on the target unit and a Poison counter, and at the end of the turn you just remove the Poison token, and at the end of the following turn, assuming the target disk survived, and wasn't poisoned again, you would remove the 3 damage?

 

Can a unit be poisoned more than once, and if so, do all the poison tokens go away at the end of the turn?

 

The dark elf corsairs got a little better with Stealth, because now they can't scatter back onto themselves with their one ranged die. (Assuming you don't have rain of arrows scenario)

 

I don't understand what you mean here.  Cover reduces missile attacks by one die to a minimum of one,  So even units with stealth can still hit themselves...



#5 Westonard

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:25 PM

Here is the word for word with Poison

 

"When a disk with poison deals damage in melee combat or with its ranged attack, place a poison token on the disk it damages. When damage tokens would be removed from a disk with a poison token, remove 1 poison token instead. If a disk takes a wound, remove both damage and poison tokens from it" 

 

Until it is erattaed, because it specifies remove 1 poison token, I would think you can have multiple poison tokens on a target. 

 

As for the Corsairs, you are right, in both that Cover reduces to one die, and scatter ignores cover anyway.



#6 Westonard

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 07:09 PM

Ah! With the miners, a second look at it, and I revise what i said before. The miners can reinforce on any terrain as long as they don't pin an enemy. That is what it means. Not that it makes any terrain function like the Windmill. Bah, poor grammar for the fail! 



#7 RedSquadronK

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 05:58 PM

I've played 2 games with the new stuff and it's pretty great. Definitely agree that only one of each box is necessary, but now I feel spoiled and like I need to invest in a 2nd Core...

 

My first game I played Dwarves vs Orcs, using the suggested armies since I was teaching someone new. This was the first game I've ever had go the full 5 rounds and he ended up winning despite me killing most of his units, because I had the bad luck of getting the VPs for deployment zones (tough for the short dwarf legs). The Gyrocopter was my MVP: I rolled well and just about every turn he would pick someone off then go pin a bunch of Boyz, rinse and repeat.

 

Second game I played Wood Elves and Dwarves vs Vamp Counts. If you don't have much shooting (like the WE/Dwarf army didn't) and you decide to engage their little skeletons first (like the WE/Dwarf army stupidly did) the VampCounts are brutal. Seeing what happens when you have almost no ranged against those nasty vampires is enough to convince me to always run some ranged in every army from now on, no matter what. MVP was probably the Wardancers: I hadn't realized that if your enemy pins them in the open, they can't become embattled, so they get their buff AND swift counterattack! Very scary to engage.

 

I was having so much fun I convinced my buddy to buy a used Core set, so next week I'll get to try even more new things! What a great game.



#8 Westonard

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 07:23 PM

Played a game with my brother. He went Dwarves with a Flame Cannon, couple Thunderers for his ranged, obviously needing medium,range to be effective, and having his thunderers for support on the cannon. Then a couple rune priests, which, admittedly are needed if you don't get the piece of dwarf terrain that gives your heroes Rune Priest, an engineer, and a couple Hammerers with the Queen and Whitebeard? The second small dwarf hero.

 

I went Vampire Counts with the Von Carsteins, two Black Knights, two Dire Wolves, one Banshee, three Grave Guard. Terrain wise, set up was the Watchtower, Large Forest/Swamp, then both new pieces of terrain. Since brother had initiative, he went first and selected the mine side, to deploy a small or medium disk, which he set one of his thunderers in. I placed the watch tower a little bit of a distance away, but in front of it. He elected for the swamp, and set it up in the middle to try to force a bog down or bottle neck. Then I placed the Garden of Morr a little bit beyond the  swamp close to his side. 

 

Game scenario was Rain of Arrows, which meant he was rolling 3 dice doing 4 damage with each, and then the flame cannon rolling two. 

 

Personal objectives, he had one point per unit killed, I had to get into his deployment zone. I can't remember what he had, but I had disperse as one of my deployment cards, so I was able to set up with the Black Knights having a slight movement advantage and the dire wolves on the flanks followed by the Von Carsteins and the three grave guard in reserve.

 

Command cards he had the Rune of Cleaving, Shield Wall, Stand Firm, and Rally

 

I had Proven Champion, Raise Dead, Dark Majesty, and Beguile. 

 

The first two turns were the two of us getting into position. With my Black Knights rushing ahead I kept the Watch Tower in between his thunderers and flame cannon to block line of sight, which was a moot point since I had deployed the watch tower just outside medium range for his mine. So while I positioned my knights and one of the dire wolves either just inside the Watch tower but out of range or to the side to block line of sight, he set up a small gun line, with his two heroes in front, supported by rune priests, and the hammerers. 

 

We had kept our personal objectives a secret, and I used Manfred as a diversion on the second turn, and moved my second dire wolf and banshee up. When the dwarf lines started to shift, and I could see a rush to my exposed hero coming, Manfred stopped it short with his Dark Majesty, preventing him from being pinned. Then the two Knights and one dire wolf rushed into his position before he could get his shield wall set up. 

 

I actually feel a little bad for him, since the attack came from just enough distance away that they trampled one rune smith and the male hero, Whitebeard? The second ran over Queen Helga, and my direwolves attacked his flame cannon. He used Stand Firm to give them Stalwart, but they whiffed their attack, one of the Thunderers was able to kill one of the Knights, but the second whiffed their attack as well. 

 

In the melee phase, I wound up doing enough damage to wound Queen Helga but lost one Knight and my dire wolves.

 

The third round was actually the turning point. Manfred never actually reached the Gardens of Morr. Instead, he reanimated the slain Knights and sent them charging into Queen Helga, while the second moved to run over Whitebeard and one of his Hammerers. While he wound up giving the Rune of Cleaving, and Empowering Whitebeard, in addition to benefiting from his swift Counterattack, it didn't make a difference in the slightest as Isabella Von Carstein Beguiled him, both knights taking down Queen Helga and isabella taking down the hammerers she pinned. 

 

The fourth turn, Mannfred repeated his tactic, reanimating the slain Knights, but this time sending them to run into Whitebeard, while my second Knight rampaged a bit further into his lines and trampling his second hammerer and hitting his engineer. It was then that my infantry actually started to show up, with my banshee rushing in and letting loose a soul wrenching shriek, rolling a 6 -2, doing 4 damage to his second hero, and killing the Engineer and hammerer. Isabella von Carstein regenerated from a wound she had suffered, and then attacked the Flame Cannon. She went down for good due to the combined shooting of both Thunderers, the flame Cannon whiffing its attack -again-  

 

The fifth turn was the actual deciding turn, because he had killed three of my disks, and none of mine had gotten to any of his deployment zones, and I wasn't going to get him off the board. Ignoring all combat, my one 'living', that is, not reanimated, knight rushed into one of his deployment zones, while the tomb banshee and second dire wolf charged what remained of his army. The combat didn't really matter, one of his thunderers scattered back onto himself trying to shoot the banshees and killed himself without harming the banshees at all, and the second thunderer was unable to kill anything, since he would have had to roll two hits, and the way he was rolling tonight that was unlikely to happen, except where Isabella was concerned.

 

I can't remember what killed his flame cannon, while my direwolves took out his second runesmith. I honestly feel bad for him because the Flame Cannon didn't hit anything, not the enemy, not his own units, let alone kill anything. And the battle was stretched out enough that his Thunderers wound up unable to support one another effectively.

 

The final score was Brother 3-4, Me 5.

 

My advice if you are playing Order and know you are going to come up against Vampire Counts, and maybe against Chaos? Bring Grim Resolve. Being immune to fear cannot be overlooked, and while there is a scenario that gives everyone immunity to fear, you have to be second player to have the decision making, and it has to be one of the two that is drawn to choose from, so it is not a reliable alternative. And even if you get both, Grim Resolve also gives 2 counter attack strength, 3 activations, and a Steady speed.


Edited by Westonard, 27 June 2014 - 07:26 PM.

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#9 Katsuyori

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 03:58 AM

I just love reading battle logs. A little bit spiced up with fluffy pieces of text it´s like a small movie playing in my head, only better, because it´s more authentic and not scripted. I wish they´d bring tournaments on TV like sport events... If only my boxes would arrive soon, I am so looking forward playing with the new stuff! Thanks for the insight, Westonard.

#10 RedSquadronK

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 08:56 AM

 

The third round was actually the turning point. Manfred never actually reached the Gardens of Morr. Instead, he reanimated the slain Knights and sent them charging into Queen Helga, while the second moved to run over Whitebeard and one of his Hammerers.

 

...

 

The fourth turn, Mannfred repeated his tactic, reanimating the slain Knights, but this time sending them to run into Whitebeard, while my second Knight rampaged a bit further into his lines and trampling his second hammerer and hitting his engineer.

 

How were you having him Reanimate both of the Knights each turn?



#11 kazik

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 10:24 AM

 

 

The third round was actually the turning point. Manfred never actually reached the Gardens of Morr. Instead, he reanimated the slain Knights and sent them charging into Queen Helga, while the second moved to run over Whitebeard and one of his Hammerers.

 

...

 

The fourth turn, Mannfred repeated his tactic, reanimating the slain Knights, but this time sending them to run into Whitebeard, while my second Knight rampaged a bit further into his lines and trampling his second hammerer and hitting his engineer.

 

How were you having him Reanimate both of the Knights each turn?

 

 

I think one of the knights disks had been alive the entire time.



#12 RedSquadronK

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 10:51 AM

He used Stand Firm to give them Stalwart, but they whiffed their attack, one of the Thunderers was able to kill one of the Knights, but the second whiffed their attack as well. 

 

In the melee phase, I wound up doing enough damage to wound Queen Helga but lost one Knight and my dire wolves.

I read it as both Knights died, one to Thunderers doing Stalwart ranged, one to Helga/other forces in melee. But perhaps it's just not clearly worded?



#13 Westonard

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 11:54 AM

It is my fault, one of the knights did not die. I knew one of them had died, and I think I had written it poorly because I was trying to recall which one it was. But one Knight died, the other lived. The unit count at the end of the game was Mannfred, One of the Knights, three Grave Guard, One Direwolf, One Banshee alive for me and he had one thunderer



#14 Westonard

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 12:03 PM

I just love reading battle logs. A little bit spiced up with fluffy pieces of text it´s like a small movie playing in my head, only better, because it´s more authentic and not scripted. I wish they´d bring tournaments on TV like sport events... If only my boxes would arrive soon, I am so looking forward playing with the new stuff! Thanks for the insight, Westonard.

 

With the mine entrance set up next to the Garden of Morr, with the ruined watch tower and swamp just beyond it, and the Dwarves arriving from two separate deployment zones, in my mind I had created a fluff story about one dwarf regiment being a garrison for the dwarf mining operation, and the second arriving when they asked for help.

 

Of course, with this game I proved, at least to myself, a fast and mobile Vampire Counts army is possible with Dire Wolves, Tomb banshees, and Black Knights. I honestly would still bring the Grave Guard as reserves because the dire wolves are not good against Dwarves, they do four damage counting their impact, which isn't enough to kill most dwarf units they will be running into on the front lines, and the banshees shriek, while it worked out great with everything grouped up and rolling the highest damage possible, you have a 33% chance to do nothing with it, so you are relying on the knights and two heroes to do most of the heavy hitting for most of the game which has its advantages and disadvantages. The Grave Guard didn't actually do anything, though I think I set them too far back on their reserve activations, but then again they were the slowest thing in my army.

 

Command card wise, Invocation of Nehek is good for this army and Isabella, as most of your units are small disks, and giving her reanimate to go with her mobile  cannot be overlooked, although Raise Dead has its place as well. Obviously I wouldn't suggest bringing both.






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