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After Force and Destiny


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#121 Aluminium Falcon

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 05:39 PM

 

Interesting.  Based on anything or just a personal choice?


Obi wan lops that dudes arm off, and I never got the impression that Luke was holding back.

They carry lethal cutting weapons.

Honestly, it seemed reasonable to me.

Fascinating.

 

I want to make it very clear that I am in no way trying to disparage your read of events.  It's just so very different from my own read and that sort of variance is incredibly interesting to me.


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#122 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 05:58 AM

I think there was an older interview with George Lucas that had him explaining that he drew quite a bit from the Samurai culture of Feudal/Shogunate Japan, or at least the idealized version of such.  The samurai were well-equipped (both in terms of armor and weaponry) and very dangerous warriors, who adhered to a code of ethics (in theory at least) to guide their actions.  For the samurai, about the only time you should draw your katana is when you intend to kill or maim the other guy, much like how in modern firearms training they teach you to only point a gun at someone if you intend to shoot them.

 

So while a Jedi does carry a very dangerous weapon, it's not so they can run about killing folks as they please, but rather that if push comes to shove and they have to fight, said fight will be over rather quickly.

 

Consider the cantina scene in A New Hope.  Had Obi-Wan not quickly and literally disarmed those two goons, they would have been firing blasters into a crowded area, and quite possibly causing lots of "innocent" bystanders to be injured.  While the RPG doesn't really cover the "innocent bystander" scenario, it's something that's very much a consideration whenever somebody uses a firearm in a crowded area, so that's likely to carry over to Star Wars as well.  The bartender in the cantina is even screaming "No blasters, no blasters!" for just this reason as he's diving behind the counter (and into cover).  Obi-Wan had already tried being reasonable with these two ("This little one's not worth the trouble.  Come, let me buy you a drink...") and acted in the best means possible to resolve the situation before it escalated and caused a lot more injury.  Thus, he breaks out the lightsaber, takes those two goons down in a matter of seconds, and nobody else got hurt beyond the two individuals that escalated the argument into violence.

 

It's obvious from the Prequel films that Jedi aren't shy about violence, but it's not their go-to solution if they can help it.  Qui-Gon Jinn in TPM could have easily killed Watto and stolen the parts needed to fix the Queen's ship... but he didn't.  He offered to pay for them, tried a mind trick to get Watto to accept the money he was offering, and when that didn't work set off (in a bit of a huff) to try and find some other non-violent solution.  Your typical party of wandering murder-hobos would probably have just killed Watto, ransacked his shop, and gone about their merry blood-spattered way.

 

Also from TPM, you have Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan very calmly sitting and waiting to meet with the Trade Federation leaders, and only break out the lightsabers when the Viceroy makes the first move and blows up the non-armed ship they arrived in.  Even then, they don't go charging into battle until after the room is being pumped full of deadly gas, at which point it becomes clear that the Trade Federation leadership isn't interested in a peaceful resolution.

 

In AotC, yes Obi-Wan did literally disarm Zam, but she'd proven herself to be dangerous already and had a blaster drawn and ready to shoot Obi-Wan in the back.  As soon as her arm was lopped off, the lightsaber was put away and Obi-Wan and Anakin hauled out of the nightclub to question her.

 

In RotJ, we've got Luke almost bending over backwards to give Jabba a chance to peacefully resolve the issue of Han Solo's imprisonment,  While Luke may have known such efforts were doomed from the start, he at least tried, though he probably took a little too much joy in setting things up to bring Jabba's criminal endeavors to a violent end, but at the same time Luke wasn't really a Jedi Knight just yet (had the skills, just not the proper mindset), and in fact part of the film's story is that he's teetering on the edge of becoming just like his father.


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#123 Aluminium Falcon

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 07:05 AM

Morningfire and I have a very similar read on the Jedi, it seems (and those citations are just the films).

 

By the time Yoda is in the mix you can starting working in aspects of Eastern monasticism.


Edited by Aluminium Falcon, 20 July 2014 - 08:56 AM.

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#124 Sylpheed

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 06:17 PM

Knights live by a code. Sjust that like samurai and Jedi, their code does not, in the end, have a fundamental problem with people ending up dead by the warriors blade.





#125 Aluminium Falcon

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 06:52 PM

Certainly a factor, yes. 

 

However, with the fantastical nature of "Star Wars", the harder realities of Knights and Samurai don't allow for (in my opinion) direct analogies.

 

Below are my examples of what the Jedi may be more akin to:

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=nPiYBfTE1ec

Not with this clip is Arthur's realization that he used the power of Excalibur selfishly.  His penance for doing so and reward for owning to his mistakes.

 

I did not include a Samurai example as I know little of the culture and decided to highlight my ignorance.  Instead, I include an example of the sort of Eastern philosophy that I do see in the Jedi.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=amkDvp--hs4



#126 2P51

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 07:10 PM

You guys are arguing a pointless circle. Lucas said he drew on martial traditions both eastern and western for inspiration in creating the Jedi.


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#127 Aluminium Falcon

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 07:31 PM

You misunderstand, 2P51. 

 

This isn't arguing.  It's sharing points of view (at least, I think so) and the factors that shaped them.

I don't feel that Sylpheed is attempting to change my mind and I have stated outright that I have no desire to change theirs.

 

in anticipation of more fully realized Jedi PCs (and other Force Users) getting a glimpse of other... well, I'll say "denominations"... of enthusiast can only be good for the fandom in general and for RPGers in specific.


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#128 Venthrac

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:45 PM

Perhaps a separate thread to discuss the fictional origins of the Jedi and their use (or avoidance) of violence is in order.
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#129 Col. Orange

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Posted Today, 03:05 AM

Obi wan lops that dudes arm off, and I never got the impression that Luke was holding back.

They carry lethal cutting weapons.

Honestly, it seemed reasonable to me.

 

In the cantina Obi Wan moves Luke (who the outlaws are pissed at) away and tries to shift their attention to himself, talking to the assholes a whole lot friendlier than Luke did.  He then tries to make any perceived slight "right" by offering to buy them a drink.  That fails, but only when one of them pulls a lethal weapon does he whip out his own lethal weapon.  And he strikes to disable, not kill.  (And even then, someone calls the cops - even defending yourself has repercussions.)

 

Obi Wan knows he can destroy these guys without breaking a sweat, but he still does everything he can to avoid a fight (short of mind control).  Sure they're trying to avoid notice, but it's still a damn sight more restrained than most PCs would have been.


Edited by Col. Orange, Today, 03:06 AM.

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#130 Shamrock

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Posted Today, 03:24 AM

I think the whole use the Force for Knowledge and Defense as opposed to Attack isn't meant to be taken completely literally.  It's fairly impossible to defend yourself, other than running away, without fighting back.  So I think if one is employing the Force in defense of self, or particularly others, it's ok if it is used in an offensive fashion.

Couldn't one use the force to turn an opponent's attack against themselves.  Like deflecting blaster bolts back.  Then you've used it in defense and never actually attacked.  There is a form or martial arts that does this, just uses the opponents own force against them.  I've seen it described as "pacifist".   Just my .02


Be well,

 

Sham


#131 Shamrock

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Posted Today, 03:40 AM

 

Obi wan lops that dudes arm off, and I never got the impression that Luke was holding back.

They carry lethal cutting weapons.

Honestly, it seemed reasonable to me.

 he strikes to disable, not kill.  (And even then, someone calls the cops - even defending yourself has repercussions.)
 

I took that as more there being a jedi (illegal), and the reward for such.  Peeps are poor and despite and jedi are the devil.  Oddly enough, I never took it as there was "violence", which seems the most obvious reason.


Be well,

 

Sham





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