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Dismantling, studying, and reproducing Archeotech.


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#21 Lady Kataline Jianwei

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 07:21 PM

 

Some space marines like to make their own power swords or other equipment.  Seriously, these guys spend a lot of time learning how to kill things.  If they are also tech-artisans, how hard can being a tech-artisan be?  I know there will be a lot of disagreement over this last statement ("but they live hundreds of years!" "they don't spend ALL their time killing!" etc., etc.), but I don't see many people trying to learn HOW the universe functions, just how pieces of it function independently from the big picture. 

 

Space Marines also have their "human" personalities erased and huge amounts of combat indoctrination downloaded directly into their brains, so they're not so much learning as having their minds imprinted with someone who once understood how to do something. Also the Adeptus Mechanicus actually does consider anyone other than them trying to understand how something works is a heresy, and I don't think routine experimentation is going to protect your crew from their wrath.

 

 

It's not that we can't afford to get more teleportaria but rather something for her character to do. Her previous pass time of getting live Xenos and studying them has been severely curtailed what with us having Death Watch Marine onboard now.

 

 

See this is why I have teleportariums be extremely rare to prevent a Rogue Trader from approaching it with the air of "Boy, we really should go down to Costco and order up another dozen or so."

 

Also clearly the Death Watch Marine should become her next subject for experimentation. If she likes tinkering with things, why not arrange for certain components to "malfunction" as the Space Marine is walking by and measure his reaction time. Turn the entire ship into an elaborate maze that contains not-quite-lethal death traps, and if confronted act surprised that the Space Marine doesn't appreciate her keeping his reaction time sharp.

 

 

 

We're refrained from buying archeotech to keep it feeling special and to keep the flagship unique. And my sister likes your suggestion. Our poor DW player won't know what hit him. 


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#22 Errant Knight

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 10:01 PM

Yes, Uriel Ventris was the first space marine making his own power sword that came to mind, but he got that inspiration from his own captain when he was still a sergeant.  So, there's two.  Also the Salamanders are well known for their artisanship.



#23 Magellan

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 11:50 PM

[Horrors that only the dead can truly escape.]

Now that you mention it, I *have* heard about that. I guess I'll just have to suppress those memories again.


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#24 Annaamarth

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 12:09 AM

Good God-Emperor on his Golden Chair, she's a Seneschal, not a Tech-priest.  She should know just enough about Archeotech to be able to teleport a team of murder-servitors, Ogryns, home-made Astartes and the newest graduates from your personal Eversor satellite temple onto a rival Rogue Trader's bridge, then cackle "Just as planned" in a sinister manner while she watches the mayhem ensue.

 

She should be developing spy networks that put the Inquisition to shame, assassin schools that embarrass the Vindicare, and stormtrooper training programs that produce troops of such quality that she is revealed to have been the second and eleventh primarchs, and she was just lost in time and space all this time.  She should be buying Forge Worlds, not teleportaria, and making tests to acquire armaments to outfit the Titan Legion that she bought the Rogue Trader for his birthday, but don't tell him, it's a surprise.

 

Sorry, I just had to get that silliness out of the way.  I'm with the naysayers, though- I don't think she'll be able to reverse-engineer a teleportarium on her own.  Of course, with help she might be able to do so.  Now, where does one go to find Techpriests willing to reverse-engineer things?  Hmm...


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#25 Wincent

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 02:58 AM

I'd second Annaamarth on that. She should play to her strengths, say: buy blue prints from DE for some xeno slaves. For DE it should be only some crappy, primitive science to chew through. Yep, no risk at all.



#26 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 05:25 AM

 

Sorry, I just had to get that silliness out of the way.  I'm with the naysayers, though- I don't think she'll be able to reverse-engineer a teleportarium on her own.  Of course, with help she might be able to do so.  Now, where does one go to find Techpriests willing to reverse-engineer things?  Hmm...

 

Take a trip through the Passage, but turn right at the 13th Station of Passage into the Vortex before you reach Port Wander. Assuming you don't get ripped apart by the storm, head for the Hollows. The Dark Mechanicus will be more than happy to provide you with teleporter tech.

 

Of course, theirs may be...err...less than sanctioned? But it will work. Especially if kept well-fed (don't ask).


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#27 Annaamarth

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 06:44 AM

Because reverse-engineering anything is ever sanctioned. Heh.


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#28 Erathia

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 09:42 AM

Sorry, I just had to get that silliness out of the way.  I'm with the naysayers, though- I don't think she'll be able to reverse-engineer a teleportarium on her own.  Of course, with help she might be able to do so.  Now, where does one go to find Techpriests willing to reverse-engineer things?  Hmm...

 

Go to 'Undred-'Undred-Teef and side with the Mekboy faction in their civil war. Give them the technology they need to gain superiority in their conflict, and they will reverse-engineer and produce dozens of them in a matter of weeks.

 

When YOU try to use the Teleporter it'll explode on you at best, or teleport only the parts of you that are red at worst (so dat dey go da fastest!) but at least you'll prove it can be done.


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#29 Lady Kataline Jianwei

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 10:22 AM

Good God-Emperor on his Golden Chair, she's a Seneschal, not a Tech-priest.  She should know just enough about Archeotech to be able to teleport a team of murder-servitors, Ogryns, home-made Astartes and the newest graduates from your personal Eversor satellite temple onto a rival Rogue Trader's bridge, then cackle "Just as planned" in a sinister manner while she watches the mayhem ensue.

 

She should be developing spy networks that put the Inquisition to shame, assassin schools that embarrass the Vindicare, and stormtrooper training programs that produce troops of such quality that she is revealed to have been the second and eleventh primarchs, and she was just lost in time and space all this time.  She should be buying Forge Worlds, not teleportaria, and making tests to acquire armaments to outfit the Titan Legion that she bought the Rogue Trader for his birthday, but don't tell him, it's a surprise.

 

Sorry, I just had to get that silliness out of the way.  I'm with the naysayers, though- I don't think she'll be able to reverse-engineer a teleportarium on her own.  Of course, with help she might be able to do so.  Now, where does one go to find Techpriests willing to reverse-engineer things?  Hmm...

 

 

I'd second Annaamarth on that. She should play to her strengths, say: buy blue prints from DE for some xeno slaves. For DE it should be only some crappy, primitive science to chew through. Yep, no risk at all.

 

You guys are only encouraging her you know. Between the lack of a PC Tech Priest and the fact she tends to play brainy support characters with a bent for tech use, her interests are more down the path of a Tech Priest than a Senechal. And I never said she was a good Senechal. And she refuses to admit that flesh is weak and get proper mechanical parts installed unless absolutely necessary.

 

Huge thanks to everyone that replied. It was a learning experience and fun to boot.


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#30 RogalDorn01

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 10:55 AM

Happy to help!  For my quick two cents, I would let her go ahead and try...but then just have it explode and take her with it on a trip to the middle of Tzeench's magical crystal corn maze of fun and mystery if she rolls anything but a 1 on her check!


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#31 WilliamAsher

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 05:56 PM

Wow. I am allways interested in other people's interpretations of Archeotech.  In your situation I do not believe that she has much chance of accomplishing her goal.  Why?  First you need your definition of Archeotech.  Mine is, technology and devices that are not longer understood or produced in the Mechanicum except for ancient manufactorums run by wrote.  That occurs when the STC for an item becomes so corrupted that no Forge World can build one, and when the basic understanding of a device is lost.  There are a number of things built during the Great Crusade that are now Archeotech.  It is possible that discovery of an STC or several STC fragments might allow reconstruction of such devices, at that point it is no longer archeotech.  That is one of the reasons even an STC fragment is incredibly valuable.  Reverse engineering Archeotech may be possible, provided there are sufficient fragments of the original STC and physical examples to study.  This would be an effort of decades/centuries with dedicated, skilled, and potentially expendable researchers.  In addition, a lot of Archeotech is made out of materials that the Mechanicum does not know how to make or shape, which may require its own research.  Obviously, remaking things the Mechanicum made during the Great Crusade makes all this much more likely.  This is a lot of the research I see the Mechanicum doing.  Often pouring over STC fragments and looking to fill in the holes.

 

To give an example, in my game the Explorator has been looking for a way to recreate STC water purifiers from Ancient Life Sustainers since the beginning of the campaign.  He has Ancient Life Sustainers on his ship, he has two research colonies where research on modern life sustainers and Ancient Life Sustainers has been ongoing for decades.  He has a 108 Tech-use and Forbidden Lore: Archeotech.  He has spent 20+ hours a week for the last 40 years researching it, with the aid of numerous assistants.  He recently traveled to Aubray's Anvil, where after a number of fleet actions and harrowing encounters with Yu'vath constructs and ancient defense systems he discovered a Voidship Component manufactorum where someone left their datapad with the work they were doing on an B-006-A1 Life Support System.  Now, he is working on the final research project to create a Archeotech Water Purifier and the necessary STC.  He will probalby finish near the time he hits Rank 8, and he has been working on it his whole career.  He chose to do water purifiers first because he wants to create a more efficient/effective purifier for everything from ships to hives.  The idea being that it is a ubiquous item that will improve the life of most of the humans in the Imperium.  Next, he is going to use the same data/methods to try and improve air purifiers.  Unfortunately, even with meticulous notes and a good number or contacts in the Mechanicum, he expects it to take decades to approve and centuries to deploy.  The party, however, will begin retrofitting imediately.

 

Warp tech I believe would be even more difficult, as well as being a LOT more dangerous.


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#32 Magellan

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 01:34 AM

I just want to correct you on one thing. You cannot create an STC. The STC is the actual machine that makes STC blueprints, and even if you make a blueprint, it is not an STC blueprint, since it was not made by an STC.


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#33 Traejun

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:11 AM

Generally speaking, the Adeptus Mechanicus owns the complete and total monopoly on almost all human technology.  Archeotech is to be turned over the the AdMech immediately upon acquiring it.  Despite the fact that the ships Enginseer is likely a member of the AdMech in mostly good standing, he/she is "errant" as a member of the Dynasty.  As such, if he/she was found fooling around with a piece of archeotech independent of AdMech oversight, the repercussions would be immediate and VERY serious.

 

As a GM, I tend to play as close to the fluff as possible.  And my reading of it would make doing what is being suggested equivalent to tech-heresy, earning the dynasty an ultimatum (at the least) and perhaps far, far worse. 


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#34 WilliamAsher

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:22 AM

True.  It wouldn't be an actual STC blueprint, but that is the term that most people use for it.  STC is used interchangeably for STC machines and the blueprints.  There are actually no STC blueprints for lots of things, they are instead made of STC technology arranged in some useful pattern.  Land Speeders are a good example of something people consider to be STC items that are not.  They were actually vehicles designed around the STC pattern for grav plates found by Land under Mars.  Many of the variants for different items such as Leman Russ tanks are actually only partially STC blueprints.  Of course if you were to have some ancient copy of an 'STC Fragment' written in some tome 6000 years ago it wouldn't technically be an 'STC blueprint' but the Mechanicum might well consider it one.  The reality is that there aren't any STCs or STC blueprints in existance any more, or if there are they are rediculously rare and stored away in a stasis chamber.  The 'STCs and STC blueprints' that the Mechanicum uses to construct things are actually copies of copies of copies....of copies of printouts and bits of other copies painstakingly reassembled and replicated through the millennia.  The Mechanicum calls these STC designs or STC blueprints still.  When the Explorator is done he will have an 'STC design' as it is based on STC technology, much like many of the designs used in the Mechanicum. Of course, this is after it is vetted.



#35 Magellan

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:26 AM

William, I disagree with you on so many levels, but you're none the less free to do as you wish.

 

As for Traejun, I sincerely question your statement. The abundance of archeotech both in the equipment and ship component lists makes me suspect that archeotech was in fact intended to be usable.

 

Also, the fluff can be interpreted in a myriad of different ways, depending on your sources and preferences, so claiming that you play "as close to the fluff as possible" is, quite frankly, nothing short of empty bragging.


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#36 ak-73

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 04:23 AM

If it was that easy, doesn't she think the world 999.M41 would look different from it does? Sure, her PC can try. What she can expect is a -60 test without Fate Point use. With a base time of at least a decade.

 

This is a baseline GMs should always remember: there is some reason for why the setting is the way it is. Why do players always think just because they play heroes, they can do things that have the potential to rewrite the universe they are playing in? Not saying it can't happen but it should be a unique, momentous occasion and the GM should consider the implications. In particular if he wants to continue playing in the altered setting.

 

If archaeotech (except under near impossible circumstances) can be reverse engineered, we're no longer in a declining Imperium of Man. This is a complete setting rewrite.

 

Alex


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#37 AtoMaki

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 04:52 AM

If archaeotech (except under near impossible circumstances) can be reverse engineered, we're no longer in a declining Imperium of Man. This is a complete setting rewrite.

 

Why? Just because a random dude managed to rebuild some archeotech stuff in a tech base around the Emperor-Only-Knows-Where Sector it doesn't mean that suddenly everyone becomes capable of doing so. Hell, it would barely make a difference within the sector... A drop of blood can't color the whole sea red, so to say. 



#38 ak-73

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 05:45 AM

Sure. But don't you think that many gifted Magos have tried and failed? If the players can do it without it being a unique occasion, what message does that send? And after the Teleportarium, what are the chances your players will stop there?

 

This can only be permissible if the GM wants the narrative to revolve around the theme of reverse engineering. The whole thing smells like thinly veiled power-gaming and not like having a focus on storytelling. If that's what you want, more power to you. For me, it breaks suspension of disbelief, as I, in fact, consider it a form meta-gaming, ie approaching the 41st millenium with a 21st century mindset.

 

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#39 AtoMaki

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:02 AM

Sure. But don't you think that many gifted Magos have tried and failed? If the players can do it without it being a unique occasion, what message does that send? And after the Teleportarium, what are the chances your players will stop there?

 

I don't think that many Magos have tried and failed. They probably tried and succeeded. Then 'meh'-ed out and moved on to more pressing concerns like politics. Yeah, the Magos has a huge teleportatium factory collecting dust under his living chambers but it won't change anything because the Magos is in no mood to actually use it. Why? Because he doesn't care - he is busy worshiping his machines, doing other tech projects and forwarding his political agenda. 



#40 Magellan

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:42 AM

he is busy worshiping his machines, doing other tech projects and forwarding his political agenda. 

 

Because clearly, the praise, fame and unspeakable wealth he'd garner from recreating one of the ancestors' most holy and useful machines, never mind progressing the AdMech's understanding of warp-science by several thousand years would not further any of his goals at all.

 

What are you even saying?


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My learnedness is legend; my accomplishments historical
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