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The Venerable Rebel Convoy


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#1 cleardave

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 02:04 PM

For the sake of variety, I've been running the two popular variations of the Rebel Convoy;

 

2 Outer Rim Smugglers

2 Golds w/ Ion Turrets

 

and

 

2 Outer Rim Smugglers w/ Anti-Pursuit Lasers

2 Rebel Operatives w/ Ion Turrets

 

Does anyone have any opinions or advice on which of these two lists ultimately fairs better in the current state of the game (pre-Wave 4)?

 

I know you can mess with it by swapping in Rookie Pilots and other things, but I'm more interested in looking at the ORS/Ion Turret shooting spree variant, and how viable they are, or aren't.

 

The dilemma for me comes down to the extra hit points on the Y-Wing build versus the potential damage from the APL/Hawk build.

 

Instinctively, I feel that the Y-Wing build is just a safer bet, as I've never been confidant in the HWK's ability to not die a fiery death if your opponent wants it gone.

 

The Y can also put out more damage with the Primary Weapon if you get the chance, and has the K-Turn if you have to swing back in a hurry.

 

Basically, all I see from the HWK is that it gives you points to slap APL's on the Smugglers, which is only potential damage.

 

Am I missing some other crucial bit of wisdom that would lead one to hands-down take the HWK build over the Y-Wing build?

 

Discuss...



#2 Sergovan

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 02:11 PM

You have already talked over many of the points as to why you should go with the Y's over the Hawks in your builds.


Rebels: 5 X-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 6 A-Wing, 2 YT-1300, 5 B-wing, 3 HWK-290, 3 Z-95, 1 E-wing, 1 GR 75

Empire: 6 Tie Fighters, 6 Tie Interceptors (1- 181st, 1- RG), 2 Tie Advanced, 2 Firesprays, 4 Tie Bombers,

2 Lambda, 2 Tie Phantom, 2 Defender

Tournament results: (S)11/11; (S)3/11;(AoIA)2/3; [R]12/28; (S) 9/10; (S) 3/6;         


#3 KineticOperator

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 02:37 PM

The Y-Wings are better, for all the reasons you have mentioned.  APLs just don't do enough damage to justify both the loss of durability and the loss of primary firepower that you get when you switch to HWKs.  The Y-Wing variant will almost always outlast the HWK variant, while also putting more damage out per turn.



#4 Red G

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 02:56 PM

The Y wing is my preference here; Hwks blow up too easily.

Edited by Red G, 16 June 2014 - 02:58 PM.


#5 Tervlon

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 03:05 PM

Y-Wings. In addition to better defenses they have better dials, can you believe that I am recommending a Y-Wing based on its dial?


Nova Squadron Member 


#6 cleardave

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 03:09 PM

Thanks everyone!

 

I had a strong Y-bias to those options, and I wanted to see if I was just missing some key hidden value to the HWK variant.  Clearly I am not.

 

If anyone has some good points for taking the HWK, I'd still love to hear them.

 

As Tervlon pointed out, the funny part is that you're actually linking ideas like "Y-Wing" and "superior movement dial" together in the same thought.



#7 KineticOperator

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 03:16 PM

The only HWK variant that you might consider is to add two Tacticians rather than APLs, or convert one Y to a HWK in order to add R3A2 to the remaining Y wing.  You gain a lot of control, but sacrifice significant damage and durability to get it.  You will suffer badly against swarms, but with the meta moving away from them this may be a viable future build.


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#8 Blue Seven

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 03:17 PM

I've usually dropped one y to a hwk for an initiative bid. It all goes wonky if you can't block other ps1 stuff.

#9 MajorJuggler

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 06:09 PM

I can concur that the MathWing says that the Y-wings are about 20% - 25% more durable than a HWK-290.

 

Also, this list isn't seeing any play at the Regionals, but just wait until wave 4 when the Phantoms really mess with the meta... 100 points of turrets, and 2 of them being Ions, might be be appealing. the problem is going to be if your opponent stays at range 3 of your turrets.



#10 Coshuda

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 06:41 PM

I think the big question to ask here is how much mileage you get out of the anti pursuit lasers. They have great odds to stack damage and I personally love them. That being said, if they haven't been pulling as much weight for you they Y's are a great option as well. Hope this helps and way to represent the convoy.

 

Side note, this list makes a brilliant foundation for a team epic game. :)


Forces currently at my command: 

Galactic Empire: 12 TIE Fighters, 3 TIE Advanced, 9 TIE Interceptors, 5 TIE Bombers, 3 Firesprays, 3 Shuttles, 2 Tie Phantoms, 1 Tie Defender, 2 VT-49 Decimator
Rebellion: 6 X-Wings, 4 Y-Wings, 8 A-Wings, 7 B-Wings, 3 YT-1300s, 2 HWK-290s, 2 Z-95 Headhunters, 1 E-Wing, 2 YT-2400s, 1 GR-75, 1 CR-90


#11 AnsibleTheta

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 07:13 PM

:)  Just add 4 Rookie Xwings & a Tala Z95 w/ an ion pulse missile.  Just remember to tell your partner to save some points for the initiative bid :P



#12 Aminar

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 07:18 PM

In theory you could run a Rebelk Operative and Roark, both with Ions. THis gives you a significant advantage in controlling who fires when.
Roark is Awesome.

That is all.

#13 Kaxel Vofer

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 07:21 PM

Y-wings with Blaster Turrets, you need more firepower in this squad, greetings.


"That the reward for you, don´t be so high".


Kaxel Vofer.

#14 Aminar

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 07:24 PM

Y-wings with Blaster Turrets, you need more firepower in this squad, greetings.

That will not work. At all. The averag damage on an unmodded Blaster turret is 1.5 The averag damage on a Ion cannon is 1 and an Ion token.
Blaster Turrets only work if you have a way to generate extra focuses each turn.
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#15 Kaxel Vofer

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 07:29 PM

  Forget the probabilities, try it in a match and tell me if work or not work, the Y-wing could generate her own Focus to use the turret, greetings.


"That the reward for you, don´t be so high".


Kaxel Vofer.

#16 KineticOperator

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 08:02 PM

 

Y-wings with Blaster Turrets, you need more firepower in this squad, greetings.

That will not work. At all. The averag damage on an unmodded Blaster turret is 1.5 The averag damage on a Ion cannon is 1 and an Ion token.
Blaster Turrets only work if you have a way to generate extra focuses each turn.

 

That is not accurate.  Or at least, the way you stated it is unclear and makes it appear that the Blaster Turret causes more damage over the course of a game than the Ion Cannon Turret does.

 

The damage for an Ion is only limited after all dice both offensive and defensive have been counted and hits have been cancelled by evades.  The only time the Blaster Turret can out damage the Ion is if its hits exceed the targets evades by more than 1 (3 hits vs 0 or 1 evade, or 2 hits vs 0 evades) and the Blaster Turret only rolls 2+ hits less than half the time (3 hits only 12% of the time).  Both turrets roll 3 dice, but if both have a focus available the Ion actually gets 2.25 hits vs. the 1.5 hits of the Blaster turret so on a normal attack the Blaster is much less likely to hit at all, much less generate more than a single net damage after defense.  If an opponent rolls more than a single, unfocused defense die then the damage expected from a Blaster turret is LESS than that of the Ion turret (and even then the advantage is only about .2 damage), and we aren't considering the effect of Ions or the fact that if both ships for whatever reason don't have a focus (common when playing convoy and ships begin bumping one another) the Blaster turret cannot fire AT ALL.

 

The bottom line is that the Ion Turret has a much higher damage output than the Blaster Turret, and it also ionizes ships.  The only case where a Blaster Turret is able to achieve a higher expected damage output over the course of a game than the Ion Turret is on a HWK using both Recon Specialist and the Moldy Crow title, and even then the damage increase is very small (less than .25 points per shot).  For that extra damage, the total cost of your Blaster Turret is 10 points (Blaster, Recon, and Moldy Crow).  It can only be justified in any way if your ship intends to take Recon Specialist and probably Moldy Crow regardless (Kyle Katarn).  Even synergy builds that pass actions will produce a lower damage output, since the loss of any ship in the combo will cripple the Blaster Turret.


Edited by KineticOperator, 16 June 2014 - 08:12 PM.

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#17 Aminar

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 08:07 PM

Forget the probabilities, try it in a match and tell me if work or not work, the Y-wing could generate her own Focus to use the turret, greetings.

Yeah, but you're looking at an unmodded 3 dice attack. Unmodded attacks, for lack of a better word, suck. Not to mention when you collide with something you can't shoot. And if you get stressed and can' take a green you can't shoot. And the list goes on.
As Kinetic said. Blaster Turret sucks.
There are places it can work. But by and large it is awful. And none of those places it can work involve Y-Wings.

#18 Caadium

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 08:25 PM

There are places it can work. But by and large it is awful. And none of those places it can work involve Y-Wings.

 

I've not tried it, but have often wondered about Horton using the blaster. Not as great as recon + crow, but it seems it could work.



#19 Aminar

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 08:28 PM

There are places it can work. But by and large it is awful. And none of those places it can work involve Y-Wings.

I've not tried it, but have often wondered about Horton using the blaster. Not as great as recon + crow, but it seems it could work.
It's not worth it. It creates a range 1 Bubble. Anybody blocking your action and your stuck. Even if they fail, they're still take a pittance of a range one attack. And Dutch with Ion is still Wayyyyy better.

#20 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 10:23 PM

In theory you could run a Rebelk Operative and Roark, both with Ions. THis gives you a significant advantage in controlling who fires when.
Roark is Awesome.

That is all.


One of my current favorite lists is 2x Blue + HLC and 2x Operative + Ions. I shoehorned the HWKs in there not because I wanted them but because they were all I had room for--but I've discovered that they're actually not too bad. I very occasionally miss the K-turn, but usually I'm turning instead so I can modify my dice, and because opponents usually perceive the B-wings as primary targets, the HWK's decreased durability when compared to the Y-wing isn't really a factor.

Obviously I can't make the same guarantee about how they'd function in a list with ORS, which are also relatively low-threat and mean your opponent might prefer to reduce the list's control function first. But Roark might be worth playing around with, and I can definitely see dual Tacticians being fun. Basically, if you can figure out what to do with 4 extra points that's more fun or more interesting than the APLs, I'd actually say to give the HWKs a try, because they might surprise you.
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