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Alric: Overpower/Overrun and Pit Spaces


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#1 Zaltyre

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 11:53 PM

I just thought of an interesting situation with Alric. Could he move into a pit space during an Overpower (or Overrun, as the case may be) action and then trade spaces with a hero, moving himself out of the pit and dropping the hero in? The rules for a pit space are:
 
If a figure enters a space containing a pit,
that figure falls into the pit, suffers two damage,
and ends its move action.
 
The text of Overpower is: Sir Alric performs a move action. Each time he moves into a space adjacent to a hero, Alric may test might. If he passes, he may trade spaces with that hero, and the hero suffers one fatigue. (Overrun is the same, but with out the test.)
 
The factors I am considering are mainly the "golden rules" about cards and abilities taking precedence over the rules in the rulebook, and the active player determining how to resolve timing conflicts (with the common trigger being entering a space.)
 
How would this situation resolve? Would Alric suffer damage but still be able to trade out, or would he fall into the pit? Would he not suffer any of the pit's consequences?

Edited by Zaltyre, 11 June 2014 - 11:54 PM.


#2 Sixko

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 12:32 AM

I would say that since both things happen at the same time the timing would be up to the active player and thus it should work



#3 Kirgat

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 01:06 AM

 

I just thought of an interesting situation with Alric. Could he move into a pit space during an Overpower (or Overrun, as the case may be) action and then trade spaces with a hero, moving himself out of the pit and dropping the hero in? The rules for a pit space are:
 
If a figure enters a space containing a pit,
that figure falls into the pit, suffers two damage,
and ends its move action.
 
You missed the part that states that whenever a figure is inside a pit the only action it can perform is a special action to get out of it. This, IMO, would invalidate switching positions with another figure

 



#4 Steve-O

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 06:47 AM

How would this situation resolve? Would Alric suffer damage but still be able to trade out, or would he fall into the pit? Would he not suffer any of the pit's consequences?


This is a tricky one. Since both effects trigger on "entering a space," there's definitely a timing issue to address.

If you choose to resolve the pit on Alric first, then his move action ends. Since Overpower/Overrun is explicitly declared as a move action with benefits, this would mean he can't swap places with anyone anymore and he's stuck in the pit.

If you choose to resolve the "with benefits" effect from Overpower first, then Alric swaps places with the hero. He then suffers 2 damage and his move action ends because both effects still need to be resolved. Worth noting; if the Might test fails, the action ends thereafter and Alric is stuck in the pit, as before.

Since Overpower is an action Alric can only take during his own activation, the OL will obviously be the active player. I don't see why he would ever choose to resolve the pit first. =P
 

You missed the part that states that whenever a figure is inside a pit the only action it can perform is a special action to get out of it. This, IMO, would invalidate switching positions with another figure


This limitation only really applies to starting an action while inside a pit. You can't initiate any action other than "climb out of the pit." Since the effect of entering a pit kills move actions - the most likely action to be in progress when a figure enters a pit - this neatly wraps up whatever might have been happening before the figure enters the pit.

Overpower IS a move action, however, the problem is that Overpower also has a special effect that triggers on the same condition as the pit itself. Since both things are resolving "at the same time" the active player gets to choose the order in which to resolve them.

The Overpower action WILL end as a result of entering the pit, but before it does we have to finish resolving the effect it triggered upon entering a space adjacent to a hero. The consequence of doing this may end up being that Alric is no longer in a pit the next time he's choosing what actions to take.

Note that the "swapping places" effect itself is NOT an action, it is an effect granted as part of the Overpower action already in progress.

Edited by Steve-O, 12 June 2014 - 06:50 AM.

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#5 Zaltyre

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 06:48 AM

 

 

You missed the part that states that whenever a figure is inside a pit the only action it can perform is a special action to get out of it. This, IMO, would invalidate switching positions with another figure

 

Good point, but while stunned the only action a figure can take is to discard the stun. However, if the figure is in the middle of another action when it becomes stunned, that action is finished first.

 

Steve-O, so your opinion is that he will suffer the damage, and his move action must end, regardless of whether or not that takes place before him switching spaces with a hero? Interesting, and I think you may be right- because the active player can't cancel an effect, just choose the order they apply.

 

It may (or may not) be worth noting that this would seem to apply to any type of "special" terrain that triggers "when entering," that is, lava and hazard spaces.


Edited by Zaltyre, 12 June 2014 - 07:03 AM.


#6 Steve-O

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 07:36 PM

Steve-O, so your opinion is that he will suffer the damage, and his move action must end, regardless of whether or not that takes place before him switching spaces with a hero? Interesting, and I think you may be right- because the active player can't cancel an effect, just choose the order they apply.


That would be my vote, anyway. I admit it's a tricky widget, so FFG may not see it the same way.

There are cases where resolving one effect first would render the other ineffectual, effectively cancelling it for all intents, but I don't think this is one of them.

It may (or may not) be worth noting that this would seem to apply to any type of "special" terrain that triggers "when entering," that is, lava and hazard spaces.


I would also agree with that.

#7 Zaltyre

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:59 AM

 

That would be my vote, anyway. I admit it's a tricky widget, so FFG may not see it the same way.

There are cases where resolving one effect first would render the other ineffectual, effectively cancelling it for all intents, but I don't think this is one of them.
 

Yeah- lava spaces it isn't so tricky- he gets damaged, but can move out- there's no reason why moving out of the space would negate the stepping into lava. However, since the "thematic idea" of the pit space is that he "falls in," it makes less sense to think about him moving in, trading spaces, and then "falling in" while in a different space. However, RAW, it's exactly the same case with the exception of the requirement to end the move action. In any case, this is another one I've sent in to the experts.



#8 Steve-O

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 05:59 PM

However, since the "thematic idea" of the pit space is that he "falls in," it makes less sense to think about him moving in, trading spaces, and then "falling in" while in a different space.


I prefer to make up theme that fits the rules rather than worry about the rules not fitting theme.

In this case, Alric is jumping over the pit, grabbing a hero's arm and pulling them in. Using their body as a bridge of sorts to get across the pit himself without falling in. He still takes damage for the exertion (and maybe some frantic flailing on the part of the woe-begotten hero.) But he has to stop moving temporarily and recover his balance after such a daring move.

Or he fails the Might check; the hero stands their ground and he falls in as normal. :P
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#9 Zaltyre

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 05:29 AM

 

However, since the "thematic idea" of the pit space is that he "falls in," it makes less sense to think about him moving in, trading spaces, and then "falling in" while in a different space.


I prefer to make up theme that fits the rules rather than worry about the rules not fitting theme.

In this case, Alric is jumping over the pit, grabbing a hero's arm and pulling them in. Using their body as a bridge of sorts to get across the pit himself without falling in. He still takes damage for the exertion (and maybe some frantic flailing on the part of the woe-begotten hero.) But he has to stop moving temporarily and recover his balance after such a daring move.

Or he fails the Might check; the hero stands their ground and he falls in as normal. :P

 

I like that interpretation, and would 100% support it if the rules didn't explicitly say "figures cannot jump over pit spaces." I know, I'm being really picky.



#10 Steve-O

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 07:48 AM

I like that interpretation, and would 100% support it if the rules didn't explicitly say "figures cannot jump over pit spaces." I know, I'm being really picky.


D1E rules said heroes could not jump over water (but they could jump over pits.)

When questioned about this, FFG said it was because of the vicious bloodsquids that lurk in even the smallest pools of water, ever waiting for foolish heroes to try and jump over.

I guess the bloodsquids have migrated to the pits now. =P

#11 Zaltyre

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 09:19 AM

I got a response from FFG regarding this conundrum. I also think the issue of whether or not FFG visits these forums (at least sometimes) is settled.

 

Q: Could Sir Alric move into a pit space during an Overpower (or Overrun) action and then trade spaces with a hero, moving himself out of the pit and dropping the hero in? How would this situation resolve, assuming he passes the test? Would he take damage? Would his move action end?

 

A: Because the overlord is the active player, he gets to decide the order that the effects resolve. Assuming he chooses to resolve the effects of Overpower before resolving the effects of the pit space, this is how I would rule that situation:

 
1. Alric tests [might] and (assuming he passes) switches places with the hero and the hero suffers 1 fatigue.
2. The hero suffers 2 damage for falling into the pit. 
3. Alric then needs to resolve the effects of the pit space he entered, even though he is no longer in the pit space. He suffers 2 damage for falling into the pit and his move action ends. 
 
The effects would be very similar if the overlord resolved the pit space first, but the order the damage would be a little different and in rare cases may make a difference if figures end up getting defeated by the damage. 
 
By the way, Steve-O’s thematic justification is exactly what I was thinking. 
 
Thanks, 
 
Nathan Hajek

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#12 Steve-O

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 06:48 PM

By the way, Steve-O’s thematic justification is exactly what I was thinking. 


That is, hands down, the awesomest thing I've read this month. :D
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#13 Alarmed

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 09:30 AM

 

By the way, Steve-O’s thematic justification is exactly what I was thinking. 


That is, hands down, the awesomest thing I've read this month. :D

 

You should get a gold star next to your name, or a signature that reads "FFG approved one response"

:lol:






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