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Rebel ace's..... Imps are in trouble


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#41 Hoosteen

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 10:58 PM

That means rebels have a bunch of nifty crew options that go on 2 ships

Okay... So Rebels have lots of Rebel-only crew options for only two ships. So this lessens the customization using crewmen.
I don't really feel like doing the math, but I am curious how many options for crewmen those two Rebel ships have, compared to how many crew options the Imperials have for their three. And we're talking about options, not necessarily competitive options, (if we are including the plethora of terrible Imperial/Rebel pilots as "options").

Then, factor in droids. Rebels may only have two ships that can take crew, but how many can take droids?

Galactic Empire: 8x Tie Fighters, 1x Tie Advance, 1x Tie Bomber, 2x Firespray 31,

Rebel Alliance: 4x X-Wings, 1x A-Wing, 1x B-Wing, 1x YT1300,

--Proud Member of the Imperial Navy--

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#42 s1n

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 12:30 AM

 

Three of those will be devastating to a swarm.


And taking three assault missile Z-95s is going to be suicide against everything but a swarm list. That's well over half your points spent on ships which are mediocre at best against Falcons/Firesprays, XXBB, Phantoms, etc. And you just can't afford to do that against an unknown opponent. The only swarm counter you're likely to face with any relevant frequency is Blount, and that's only a single point of splash damage. If you let the hypothetical "worst opponent" lists scare you out of playing a list, regardless of the fact that they are likely to be extremely rare, then you're badly over-reacting and don't really understand how the metagame works.

 

Given all of the options aimed at countering swarms and all of the rebel content released lately, it seems silly to build half your list to counter 1 specific build.

 

By the way, Z95s aren't that good. Once you get past the alpha strike, they have no teeth.



#43 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:47 AM

You guys make a great point about the turrets. If FFG is making changes that focus quite obviously on a certain build (swarms) then I don't see why the imps should not get a turret. The swarm is what came natural to imp players out of need. You had to swarm the rebels because they had such powerful ships. If they kill my swarms I would like some turret action.

 
Swarm builds existed in Wave 1, when the only turret was the Ion Cannon Turret.
 

I have never flown the swarm as Imperials, and I have hardly felt handicapped. Hell, in the midst of double Falcon craziness last year, I didn't see the issue.


Ditto.
 

I would also like to point out that (most) Imperial players aren't "complaining" with a "THIS ISN'T FAIR" attitude…


We're reading different posts, then. Assuming there really is such a thing as an "Imperial player", which I'm still half-certain is a joke you're all putting on for my benefit.

I know for myself, I'm not "whining that Imperials are at a disadvantage."
We just want more options! I want to be able to have a bunch of options, or crew-members that make flying Imperial special.


Why doesn't it count to have eight okay, seven Empire-only ships from which to build your lists?

#44 Rhinoviru3

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:52 AM

No, we aren't. We still dominate W4; and thus far the advanced piloting skills that the Phantom, Defender, and Interceptor still offer us the same thing that the imps have always had: High Risk, High Reward.

 

I would also like to point out that the Imps are likely to get boosts through potential large ship releases (I myself am still praying for a fix to the TIE/A!)

 

My two pence!


Rebels: 4X, 2Y, 2B, 2A, 2Hwk, 2YT, 1GR-75, 2E, 4Z, 1x YT-2400,
(See my Rebels paint thread here!)

Empire: 5x TIE/ln, 3x TIE/sa, 4x TIE/Int, 1x TIE/A, 1x F-31, 1x Lambda, 3x TIE/Pha, 1x TIE/D
(And my Imperial paint thread here!)


#45 Knucklesamwich

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:05 AM

The swarm is very popular still in my area. It has won the last two tournaments that I know about at my FLGS. I also know there are many people who HATE the swarm with a passion. I think for 22 points you can't really go wrong putting a ship on the board that can have a high potential of doing 6-7 damage to a swarm on the alpha strike because as any swarm player can tell you staying in formation is a key element to victory with a swarm.

I also think that customization is one of the best aspects of this game and as a mostly imperial player I feel like we keep seeing wave after wave of awesome synergies that the rebels keep getting and we haven't seen a new one since wave 1. The only crew we have that is unique kills himself, while fun and interesting I don't think he is the only unique crew that we want to see on the board for imps. I'm heading to Gen-con this year. I really hope they surprise me with Grand Admiral Thrawn!!!
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#46 Sergovan

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:52 AM

I also think that customization is one of the best aspects of this game and as a mostly imperial player I feel like we keep seeing wave after wave of awesome synergies that the rebels keep getting and we haven't seen a new one since wave 1. The only crew we have that is unique kills himself, while fun and interesting I don't think he is the only unique crew that we want to see on the board for imps. I'm heading to Gen-con this year. I really hope they surprise me with Grand Admiral Thrawn!!!

 

I think this post sums up the way I feel about the Empire and the game the best. That's why I'm waiting to see what the Empire big ships are and the Empire only crew that come with it. 


Rebels: 5 X-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 4 A-Wing, 2 Yt-1300, 3 B-wing, 3 HWK-290, 3 Z-95, 1 E-wing, 1 CR 75

Empire: 6 Tie Fighters, 6 Tie Interceptors (1- 181st, 1- RG), 2 Tie Advanced, 2 Firesprays, 4 Tie Bombers,

2 Lambda, 1 Tie Phantom, 1 Defender

Tournament results: 11 of 11; 3 of 11;(AoIA)2 of 3; 12 of 28


#47 Forensicus

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 04:09 AM

As crazy as it sounds, with all the rebel's beautiful toys coming and coming and coming.... I still prefer to fly the Imperial side and don't believe that anything coming for the rebels will make my imperial's builds less effective. Rebels have been getting free token and actions from day one with Garven and Dutch. Yes, they have more variety in their upgrades and crew, but it doesn't make their ships any less boring to fly.... Just counter with a Phantom, Lt Lorrir, a defender, Soontir Fel, now that is some fun flying!

 

A small lol on the "Rebels have been getting free token and actions from day one" bit (although I will admit that the Interceptor fun wasn't done in Wave 1):

 

Imperial "free stuff":

Howlrunner: 1 (free) re roll for each friendly ship at Range 1 (= half a free TL)

Night Beast: 1 free Focus fAction or a green maneuver (if not stressed prior to the green move)

Turr Phennir: Perform 1 free Boost or Barrel roll Action after attacking

Soontir Fel: Assign 1 Focus Token when getting stressed

 

 


Edited by Forensicus, 09 June 2014 - 04:10 AM.

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 Fleet: 1 x [YT-1300] -  5 x [X-Wing] - 4 x [A-Wing] -2 x [Y-Wing] - 2 x [HWK-290] - 4 x [B-Wing] - 1 x [Transport] - 1 x [Tantive IV]: 2 x [Firespray-31] - 8 x [Tie Fighters] - 6 x [Tie Interceptor] - 3 x [Tie Advanced] - 3 x [TIE-Bomber] - 3 x [Lambda Shuttle]

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#48 Asgo

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 04:35 AM

hmm how would a grand admiral crew card look like?

let's say it's a single use action

an admiral never leaves the house without his fleet so let him sweep the playing area in  a (off board) pass of his fleet

roll 5 attack dice, for every crit kill a large ship for every hit a small one

...now we just have to haggle about the point price :)



#49 Knucklesamwich

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:20 AM

Nightbeast , Turr and Soontir are not synergistic. They are self contained skills. The rebels have Garven, Biggs, Dutch, Lando, Jan, Kyle, Roark and a bunch of unique crew that make very interesting synergies. The imps have Howl , Jonus who I rarely see used, and the space hippo pilots who I see a bit more. And on top of the Rebel dominance in number of sharing abilities they have very long ranges! Howl and Jonus are range one so you are forced to stay tight. That will be much more dangerous with munitions failsafe around the corner.

#50 failedparachute

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:04 AM

i feel like everyone is forgetting a nasty Interceptor pilot by the name of Canor Jax. Get him into the middle of your enemy's formation, and they're gonna have a bad time, and god forbid he ends up in someone's rear arc at range one. Granted it takes skill to get him that close and have him survive, but it's certainly doable. I can see him having some decent synergy with a mini-Howlruner Swarm, particularly against lower Agility ships.

 

That all being said, I feel like a lot of the frustration at the Rebels' synergies (in this and other threads) boils down to the game's asymmetric faction design, which IMO does a good job keeping with the lore of the Star Wars Universe. The Empire lacks synergies because, as I see things, they rely more on their superior numbers. "Quantity has a quality all its own," and all that. The Rebels can't afford to play that game, so they work as a group to take out a numerically superior force. That is probably why we see more of their strategy reflected by the game mechanics, and the Empire has theirs reflected by their lower priced pilots, particularly with EPTs. And on the flip side their better pilots are better because they have to be more individually focused and skilled to survive against their (arguably) technologically superior opponents.

 

I will certainly concede the point though that the Empire is lacking in Unique crew specifically, though I feel that the Rebel Prisoner is being undervalued. It stops Opportunist, provided the first ship shooting has it, and even if it doesn't that's a ship that's going to have to do a green next turn if they want their action. As for more, I think we'll have to wait and see what Huge Ships drop for the Empire. I expect they'll even things out a bit.


Rebel Fleet:

Spoiler

Imperial Fleet:

Spoiler

#51 Red Castle

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:11 AM

Nightbeast , Turr and Soontir are not synergistic. They are self contained skills. The rebels have Garven, Biggs, Dutch, Lando, Jan, Kyle, Roark and a bunch of unique crew that make very interesting synergies. The imps have Howl , Jonus who I rarely see used, and the space hippo pilots who I see a bit more. And on top of the Rebel dominance in number of sharing abilities they have very long ranges! Howl and Jonus are range one so you are forced to stay tight. That will be much more dangerous with munitions failsafe around the corner.

You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

He has 2 actions, by giving one of those to a teammates in range 1-2, he's doing what Dutch, Garven, Kyle, Lando or Cracken is doing, but in his own style. Instead of being only a TL, or a focus. It's an action, so the receiver can do whatever he needs to do, and since Vader is PS9, pretty much everybody has move so you have a clear view of the field. He's also very resiliant with 3 agi and 5 hit points so won't get destroyed soon. Also, if he,s left alone at the end of the battle, his pilot ability is still badass, you only lose the 2 pts you invested in SL. Compared to all the rebel ones that as soon as nobody is there to receive the token, just become regular pilot with a high PS.


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I'm a french native player so sometimes, some expressions or meanings might be lost in translation. I mean no disrespect.


#52 DoubleNot7

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:16 AM

It's not like you can switch sides or anything...

oh wait...

 

 

 

Pray I don't alter the deal further.


Enimo Et Fide


#53 Aminar

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:45 AM

That means rebels have a bunch of nifty crew options that go on 2 ships

Okay... So Rebels have lots of Rebel-only crew options for only two ships. So this lessens the customization using crewmen.
I don't really feel like doing the math, but I am curious how many options for crewmen those two Rebel ships have, compared to how many crew options the Imperials have for their three. And we're talking about options, not necessarily competitive options, (if we are including the plethora of terrible Imperial/Rebel pilots as "options").
Then, factor in droids. Rebels may only have two ships that can take crew, but how many can take droids?
And? Droids somehow make the rebels inherently better?
Neither synergistic abilities nor more upgrade options make the Empire worse than the rebels. The Imperials have more pilots under 20 points than the rebels by a mile. And even more generic pilots. That gives them more customization by far. Name a rebel squad that can fit 6 named pilots on a team? It doesn't exist. They can barely fit 4, even with Z-95s. They have more 5 ship squad builds than the rebels by far. They have more agile ships than the rebels. Nearly every ship they have has better action options.(How many rebel ships have the largely redundant Focus and Target Lock as their only options.) I play Imperial. They're not crippled. They're not stagnant. If they had the support and upgrade options the rebels do they'd be broken. How hard is it to take down a Recon specialist Firespray? Now imagine what it would look like with Interceptors that can hold more focus tokens than Soontir Fel? Action passing to ships with actual options like focus evade and barrel roll is dangerous. An that's on the cheapest ship the empire has. Not the e-wing or b-wing where the cost is prohibitively high.
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#54 Elkerlyc

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:55 AM

 

You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

 

 

 

Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:


The scissor is nicely balanced but the paper is OP said the stone.


#55 Aminar

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:56 AM

You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 
Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:
I suppose Each and every Rebel squad is running an action passer too?
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#56 Red Castle

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:11 AM

 

 

You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

 

 

 

Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:

 

It can also mean that Imperials don't need an action passer as much as they claim. They have a very good one, they just don't use it.

 

EDIT: Also, I'm glad that for a unit to be good, it must not be in each and every team you build. There is enough choice and good units to make a build for your taste, not always the same 3 units. That would go into Overpowered territory.


Edited by Red Castle, 09 June 2014 - 08:22 AM.

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I'm a french native player so sometimes, some expressions or meanings might be lost in translation. I mean no disrespect.


#57 Sergovan

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:18 AM

 

 

You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 
Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:
I suppose Each and every Rebel squad is running an action passer too?

 

If not, then its a turreted ship...

 

I'm trying not to snark in this thread but its not easy. The Empire is behind by two Epic ship releases and that means crew, weapons, teams, pilots on whatever ship is the escort. The game has been balanced, up until this point. It will balance out once the Empire Epic release hits, but that's not for another 12 months or more...

 

Everyone is saying the Phantomis the big threat. That was the same talk about interceptors back in Wave 2 before the Falcon neutered them.


Rebels: 5 X-Wing, 4 Y-Wing, 4 A-Wing, 2 Yt-1300, 3 B-wing, 3 HWK-290, 3 Z-95, 1 E-wing, 1 CR 75

Empire: 6 Tie Fighters, 6 Tie Interceptors (1- 181st, 1- RG), 2 Tie Advanced, 2 Firesprays, 4 Tie Bombers,

2 Lambda, 1 Tie Phantom, 1 Defender

Tournament results: 11 of 11; 3 of 11;(AoIA)2 of 3; 12 of 28


#58 Elkerlyc

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:20 AM

 

 

 

You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

 

 

 

Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:

 

It can also mean that Imperials don't need an action passer as much as they claim. They have a very good one, they just don't use it.

 

 

Agreed. All imp players are dumb as fook. If only they knew what you know eh? ;)


The scissor is nicely balanced but the paper is OP said the stone.


#59 Aminar

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:26 AM

You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 
Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:
I suppose Each and every Rebel squad is running an action passer too?
If not, then its a turreted ship...
 
I'm trying not to snark in this thread but its not easy. The Empire is behind by two Epic ship releases and that means crew, weapons, teams, pilots on whatever ship is the escort. The game has been balanced, up until this point. It will balance out once the Empire Epic release hits, but that's not for another 12 months or more...
 
Everyone is saying the Phantomis the big threat. That was the same talk about interceptors back in Wave 2 before the Falcon neutered them.
No it really isn't. It's that or X-wings and B-wings or a turret. Which basically means one of half the rebel ships.

#60 Red Castle

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:27 AM

 

 

 

 

You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

 

 

 

Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:

 

It can also mean that Imperials don't need an action passer as much as they claim. They have a very good one, they just don't use it.

 

 

Agreed. All imp players are dumb as fook. If only they knew what you know eh? ;)

 

Really not what I meant.

 

I just said that Vader is one of the best action giver. I never said people were stupid not to use him. You can't deny that it's a very good one and a good option if you really want to pass action. But do you really need to pass action to have a good team? No. That's probably why we don't see him often in teams.


I'm a french native player so sometimes, some expressions or meanings might be lost in translation. I mean no disrespect.





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