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Developing List: Slice and Dice


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#1 cubby09

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 01:00 PM

http://xwing-builder.../slice-and-dice

has some tempo control in the y wing. tankiness of the Dagger. and the Awings get 5 count them 5 dice at range 1


"I can hold it.....no, I'm alrigh......agghhh!" 

-The Death of Porkins

Imperial 1 Tie advanced, 1interceptor, 1 bomber, 1 firespray, 2 Lambda, 7 ties, 2 aces

Rebel 4 x-wings, 2 y-wings, 3 b-wing, 1 HWK, 2 Falcons, 3 A-wing, GR-75


#2 malladin.ben

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 01:25 PM

Expose is just bad on every level. swap it for ptl and target lock and focus and you'll get on average 3.75 hits with 4 dice. your 5 dice with neither nets you 2.5 hits on average. Plus ptl is a point cheaper.

#3 cubby09

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 01:28 PM

All i know is that someone ran it the other day with jan and each awing got 6 dice at range 1. 12 dice against Ten Numb equaled a crippled Ten numb.


"I can hold it.....no, I'm alrigh......agghhh!" 

-The Death of Porkins

Imperial 1 Tie advanced, 1interceptor, 1 bomber, 1 firespray, 2 Lambda, 7 ties, 2 aces

Rebel 4 x-wings, 2 y-wings, 3 b-wing, 1 HWK, 2 Falcons, 3 A-wing, GR-75


#4 malladin.ben

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 01:49 PM

yep, but 10 dice with target lock and focus will usually mean a dead ten numb

#5 Engine25

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 02:04 PM

http://xwing-builder.../slice-and-dice

has some tempo control in the y wing. tankiness of the Dagger. and the Awings get 5 count them 5 dice at range 1

 

 

Expose is just bad on every level. swap it for ptl and target lock and focus and you'll get on average 3.75 hits with 4 dice. your 5 dice with neither nets you 2.5 hits on average. Plus ptl is a point cheaper.

 

I agree that Expose is super terribad.  Drop Expose on both ships, and throw away all of your expose cards.  But, I disagree with Push the Limit and Opportunist, for this reason:  You cannot activate Opportunist if you are already stressed, and you can't fit in any Wingman EPTs as the list stands to remove the stress from the combat phase.  How about Opportunist and Predator?  4 Dice at Range 1 with a Focus Token and 1-2 rerolls.  While not quite as good as PtL, it allows you to use Opportunist in the same turn, while significantly increasing your hit average.


Just another stuck up, half-witted, scruffy-looking Nerf-Herder bidding you, Fly Casual.

#6 UnfairBanana

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 02:13 PM

Expose may not be great in most cases, but on A-wings, I don't think it's so bad. It's an extra attack at the cost of the third evade dice, so you've got 3/2, just like an x-wing. Only downside is the lack of an action, but with 5 dice, that downside is mitigated a little bit. A-wings should have no problems being at range 1 and evading firing arcs


Rebels: 3 A-wings, 3 B-wings, 2 E-wing, 4 X-Wings, 2 Y- Wings, 2 Z-95s, 1 HWK-290, 1 YT-1300, 1 YT-2400, 1 GR-75 Space whale, 1 CR-90 Corvette

 

Empire: 6 TIE/LN, 4 TIE Interceptors, 2 TIE Bombers, 1 TIE Advanced, 2 TIE Defender, 2 TIE Phantom, 2 Firesprays, 1 Lambda, 1 VT-49


#7 malladin.ben

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 02:38 PM

Good point, I'd forgotten about the stress part of opportunist. how about outmanoeuvre and ptl instead? 8 dice with TL & Focus still usually kills a b wing when it doesn't get any defence dice. means you have to fly it well, but you are flying a wings...

#8 malladin.ben

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 03:01 PM

Expose may not be great in most cases, but on A-wings, I don't think it's so bad. It's an extra attack at the cost of the third evade dice, so you've got 3/2, just like an x-wing. Only downside is the lack of an action, but with 5 dice, that downside is mitigated a little bit. A-wings should have no problems being at range 1 and evading firing arcs

it comes down to simple maths. The more dice you start with the more you give up by using expose over a TL or a focus.

let's have a look at the average results for TL & Focus vs expose:

2 dice with focus and target lock = 1.875
2 dice with focus or target lock = 1.5
3 dice with neither = 1.5

3 dice with TL & Focus = 2.8125
3 dice with focus or TL = 2.25
4 dice with neither = 2

4 dice with focus & TL = 3.75
4 dice with TL or focus = 3
5 dice with neither = 2.5

with 2 attack dice expose is roughly equal to a TL or focus action, but then when you consider it's cost you 4 points and you've lost a point of agility it becomes clearly worse. even on an a wing, at range 1 you're better off with a TL or focus. With more dice it's even worse.

If at any point you start to find yourself thinking expose might actually be a good idea, just stop and bang your head against the wall, and then burn your expose cards.

Edited by malladin.ben, 08 June 2014 - 03:03 PM.


#9 Jo Jo

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 04:16 PM

lol, they really should errata Expose to read: "Until the end of the game". Then add "You can perform another action to reverse this effect. 

 

Then it might be useful. 


"And then, we'll remind the Rebellion what war is all about." 


#10 Ebak

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 05:51 PM

With all due respect to the others. Try the expose and see if it works for you. If it does work, then great, if not then you can drop it and go with something else.

 

Advice is all well and good but when people say "This card is bad, never use it, infact burn it." I roll my eyes, in the right hand Expose can be useful, I have been on the receiving end of said barrage and it isn't fun.



#11 Jo Jo

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 06:55 PM

Do tell what barrage you ran up against. Maths prove the Expose is garbage. Only Vader and maybe Vessery you could even think of running it on, but even those two have better options. 

 

I posted this alternate list in response to the list in this thread: http://community.fan...rtunity-knacks/

 

Very similar idea to get super offensive A-wings, but this uses Opportunist and Jan Ors w/ SL. So one of your A-wings could be throwing 5 dice with a potential to be TL'd and Focused. Nasty combo. 


"And then, we'll remind the Rebellion what war is all about." 


#12 Millennium Falsehood

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 07:09 PM

Expose is a card that I classify under "fun to play, but not competitive." I almost never equip it to my competitive squads, but if I'm just out to have a little fun relaxing with friends, I'll probably stick it on an A-wing or Wedge and have some fun with it. It's a waste of points if I'm going to be going against someone who I know is either my equal or better, but against casual friends who just want a fun Star Wars game, I like it.


Rebel Alliance: 7 X-wings, 5 Y-wings, 4 A-wings, 1 YT-1300, 2 HWK-290s, 3 B-wings, 1 GR-75, 1 CR-90, 5 Z-95 Headhunters, 1 E-wing

Galactic Empire: 7 TIE Fighters, 1 TIE Advanced, 2 Firespray-31s, 1 Lambda class Shuttle, 3 TIE Bombers, 2 TIE Interceptors, 3 181st TIE interceptors, 3 Royal Guard Interceptors

 

"Main characters defeat a Star Trek villain? Give 'em a Star Wars celebration!"


#13 AlexW

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 07:18 PM

http://xwing-builder.../slice-and-dice

has some tempo control in the y wing. tankiness of the Dagger. and the Awings get 5 count them 5 dice at range 1

 

Why not outmaneuver instead of expose?  You probably don't want to use expose when you can be targeted anyway.



#14 malladin.ben

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 11:31 PM

My point is to highlight the bad design of the card. when the core of the game is so mathematically beautiful, expose just takes all that and crap on it. As a sometime games designer myself it hurts to see things like this in a game. I guess I have a classic nerd thing about it. It's the Jar Jar Banks of the game - it migh5 have seemed like a fun idea at the time, but it really just shouldn't be there. Any criticism I give is all pointed in the game designer's direction.

I don't see how it's any more fun than just taking a target lock or focus. I play a Garven and Dutch list a lot and I know how much fun having both can be, even on an a wing. 3 dice range 1 with TL & focus can be awesome fun.




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