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question about surge + AoE attack


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#21 griton

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 01:13 PM

 Rule Question:
Does "after dice are rolled" mean "during the roll dice step, but after rolling dice," or "any time after dice are rolled, until the attack is resolved?" Thanks!

            Answer:
            After dice is immediately after dice. Once players have had the opportunity to trigger any of their after dice                 abilities, the attack progresses to the Check Range step, and players can no longer use after dice abilities. 

 

Interesting. I feel like that contradicts some previous rulings, but it's just a gut feeling and I don't have anything to back that up with.

 

Then again, it could be that the "once players have had the opportunity" to mean that you have to allow for that opportunity and can't just rush through. I might have to see if I can find why I think it might be contradicting something.



#22 any2cards

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 01:40 PM

 

 Rule Question:
Does "after dice are rolled" mean "during the roll dice step, but after rolling dice," or "any time after dice are rolled, until the attack is resolved?" Thanks!

            Answer:
            After dice is immediately after dice. Once players have had the opportunity to trigger any of their after dice                 abilities, the attack progresses to the Check Range step, and players can no longer use after dice abilities. 

 

Interesting. I feel like that contradicts some previous rulings, but it's just a gut feeling and I don't have anything to back that up with.

 

Then again, it could be that the "once players have had the opportunity" to mean that you have to allow for that opportunity and can't just rush through. I might have to see if I can find why I think it might be contradicting something.

 

 

@Griton ... I know you have been an active participant, so please don't take this the wrong way  :D

 

Welcome to FFG.  I can't begin to tell you how often, with some of their games, that they make rulings, then revise the rulings, then re-rule on the rulings, etc.  It can make your head spin.  All you would need to do is look at the evolution of FAQs as it pertains to Descent First Edition, and it would make you sick how often there were flip-flops, changes of direction, rulings on rulings, etc.  :P



#23 Zaltyre

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 01:47 PM

Whether or not that's true, I haven't myself come across anything this ruling contradicts- it makes sense to me that "after dice are rolled" follows the rolling of dice. The closest thing to a "contradiction" I've seen to this is Justin mentioning that you can use "after dice are rolled" during step 3 as well, but that's just because (and he said as much) it's very difficult to enforce people not counting up range immediately in their heads. It's supposed to end with step 2, but step 3 is basically non-existent in real time.



#24 griton

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 03:25 PM

@Griton ... I know you have been an active participant, so please don't take this the wrong way  :D

 

Welcome to FFG.  I can't begin to tell you how often, with some of their games, that they make rulings, then revise the rulings, then re-rule on the rulings, etc.  It can make your head spin.  All you would need to do is look at the evolution of FAQs as it pertains to Descent First Edition, and it would make you sick how often there were flip-flops, changes of direction, rulings on rulings, etc.  :P

Heh, oh I know. I've seen it a bunch.

 

And really, there may not be all that many situations where it matters too much. (A lot of the examples in this thread were hypothetical). I guess in the case of the Heavy Cloak, the Overlord wouldn't have to declare how they were spending surges before the Hero had to decide whether or not to use the Heavy Cloak.

 

I'm starting to think that I may have been conflating "After Dice are Rolled" with "When you attack" / "When you activate", etc.


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#25 any2cards

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 04:24 PM

 

@Griton ... I know you have been an active participant, so please don't take this the wrong way  :D

 

Welcome to FFG.  I can't begin to tell you how often, with some of their games, that they make rulings, then revise the rulings, then re-rule on the rulings, etc.  It can make your head spin.  All you would need to do is look at the evolution of FAQs as it pertains to Descent First Edition, and it would make you sick how often there were flip-flops, changes of direction, rulings on rulings, etc.  :P

Heh, oh I know. I've seen it a bunch.

 

And really, there may not be all that many situations where it matters too much. (A lot of the examples in this thread were hypothetical). I guess in the case of the Heavy Cloak, the Overlord wouldn't have to declare how they were spending surges before the Hero had to decide whether or not to use the Heavy Cloak.

 

I'm starting to think that I may have been conflating "After Dice are Rolled" with "When you attack" / "When you activate", etc.

 

 

Actually, this is one of the things that frustrates me to no end about some of FFG's games in general, and Descent (First and Second edition) in specific.

 

So often you read the rules (in this particular case the turn order), and you feel that you have a solid understanding about how things should work.  Then someone else reads them, interprets them in a different manner (perhaps in a way that you feel no sane person would), and a "discussion" ensues (read vociferous debate :D).

 

Sometimes it is a literal vs interpretation issue of the rules; sometimes its people putting their bent/fluff issues in play; sometimes it is FFG's own rulings/contradictions.

 

I have often thought that the biggest draw back to these games is (and please note that this is just my OPINION) the PERCEIVED lack of:

 

1) Play testing - not just the base game, but all interactions between expansions, new classes, new skill cards, new shop items, etc.

 

2) Defining key words - several of my group feel very strongly that FFG would benefit IMMENSELY if they would simply create an appendix to their rules which contained a section of Key Definitions of Terms.  For example, in Descent First Edition, there was a debate that existed for about the first three years of the game as to what constituted an "empty" space.  Eventually, and official FAQ ruling came down, but this could have been avoided by just defining the term up front.

 

3) Quality writers - this goes hand in hand with both points above.  Find truly gifted documentation people - people with writing degrees, that know how to get across key points.

 

Anyways ... just my rant & wish list.  Still love the games.  Still have fun.  But I could do with a little less of the "discussions" we sometimes have.  :P



#26 griton

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 11:17 AM

Actually, this is one of the things that frustrates me to no end about some of FFG's games in general, and Descent (First and Second edition) in specific.

I have often thought that the biggest draw back to these games is (and please note that this is just my OPINION) the PERCEIVED lack of:

 

1) Play testing - not just the base game, but all interactions between expansions, new classes, new skill cards, new shop items, etc.

Keep in mind that very few companies make games to the same scale as FFG, which are often both heavy in theme and rules. If you look at the big picture, FFG is actually pretty good about handling a lot of eventualities, but you have to pay close attention to the wording of their rules. (Hence why so many questions can be answered on forums by people who do). Unfortunately the scope of their games just leads to not being able to catch everything.

 

Yeah, they get some things wrong and have situations that do occur that are weird or ambiguous, but I think it's much more about the scope of the games being difficult to catch everything than them not trying.

 

 

2) Defining key words - several of my group feel very strongly that FFG would benefit IMMENSELY if they would simply create an appendix to their rules which contained a section of Key Definitions of Terms.  For example, in Descent First Edition, there was a debate that existed for about the first three years of the game as to what constituted an "empty" space.  Eventually, and official FAQ ruling came down, but this could have been avoided by just defining the term up front.

QFT



#27 any2cards

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 11:33 AM

 

"... but you have to pay close attention to the wording of their rules ..."

 

This right here is part of the problem, but perhaps it is more of a problem for the players (us) than the creators (FFG).  I can't begin to tell you the number of threads (oh wait ... you participate as much as I, so I am sure you know) that have on-going discussions as to:

 

the literal meaning of the rules vs the thematic intention vs etc.

 

Some players take this as far as to interpret some of the fluff as being part of the rules.  I really don't like having to guess the intention of any rule; I want it spelled out.  Unfortunately, FFG often tends to fail in this regard.  That is one of the main reasons for my point #2 above (an appendix of Key Definitions of Terms).  I think it would prevent much of the silliness that occurs in some of the threads.  I know it would allow text on cards to be better received as with this appendix, you would have all of the room you need to be explicit, where the cards themselves could be brief.

 

And boy oh boy can people get heated if they feel their "interpretation" is under attack; too much defensiveness in these forums.  Again, something that could be addressed by better written rules.

 

It's funny ... several years ago FFG actually posted a News bulletin advertising for a new Technical Writer position.  It was refreshing to see, but I don't think, given the release of content after that point in time, that it had much impact.

 

Please don't misunderstand.  I absolutely lover FFG's games; I just wish their rules, text on cards, etc. were better written.


Edited by any2cards, 24 June 2014 - 11:34 AM.


#28 sigmazero13

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 12:00 PM

I haven't found many companies that produce games of the level of detail and complexity that FFG does that makes their rules much clearer.  That doesn't mean they aren't there, but making rules is hard, even with a technical writer.






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