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question about surge + AoE attack


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#1 Isilion

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 05:11 PM

Hi all,

 

I'm new to the game. Brand new in fact, I haven't played a single quest yet, but I'm studying the rules.  

I have a question to which I haven't found an explicit reply yet.    

If someone does an AoE attack and rolls one or more surges, does he choose separate surge results for each target or does he choose once and apply that to all?

I'm guessing the last option, but I'd rather be 100% sure.

 



#2 Whitewing

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 06:07 PM

Do you mean a blast attack? You spend your surges once and only once every time you attack. It applies the same to every target effected by your attack.



#3 Isilion

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 07:52 PM

yes, things like blast, the hero feat of Widow, fire breath, etc.

Ok so it is as I expected. thanks for the clarification :)



#4 Steve-O

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 06:31 AM

Yes, surges apply to the attack as a whole.

Also note that this means if somebody has an ability to cancel surges on an incoming attack, that surge will be effectively removed for everybody affected by the attack, not just the figure who's cancelling it.

#5 Ser Folly

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 09:51 AM

Also note that this means if somebody has an ability to cancel surges on an incoming attack, that surge will be effectively removed for everybody affected by the attack, not just the figure who's cancelling it.

 

Are you sure about this Steve-O? I never saw anything like that but I would have ruled, that such an effect would only trigger if the character is really target of the attack and not a bystander in the blast radius.

 

Is there a ruling on it?


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#6 Whitewing

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 02:34 PM

Only the target of the attack is generally allowed to use such abilities anyway.



#7 Kunzite

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:45 AM

It's the same idea that if a surge applies to everyone (not not a new one for each target) then creatures have the ability to cancel it for all. The rules are normally as simple as they can be.

 

I would question if any creature (hero or monster) can do so if the ability to do says "when the target of an attack". Unless the blast is targeting that creature, I am not sure they get that option. We have come to that point a couple of times. There is different wording for different abilities, letting some creatures to act in this way if they are count in a blast but not in the targeted space. 


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#8 Zaltyre

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:27 AM

It's the same idea that if a surge applies to everyone (not not a new one for each target) then creatures have the ability to cancel it for all. The rules are normally as simple as they can be.

 

I would question if any creature (hero or monster) can do so if the ability to do says "when the target of an attack". Unless the blast is targeting that creature, I am not sure they get that option. We have come to that point a couple of times. There is different wording for different abilities, letting some creatures to act in this way if they are count in a blast but not in the targeted space. 

It's absolutely a question of whether the ability in question uses the wording "targeted" or "affected." For example, the "Heavy Cloak" says: Exhaust this card after dice are rolled to cancel a surge on an attack that targets you.

 

If we're talking a surge:blast attack (for example,) the cloak can't be used by a figure adjacent to the original target square for two reasons.

 

1: The cloak specifies that the attack must target you. The wording of blast is that the attack "affects" each figure adjacent to the target space. It does not "target" those spaces (same case with fire breath.) 

 

2. The time to use the cloak is "after dice are rolled" since the attack doesn't blast (or fire breath) until the spend surges step, by the time the attack is affecting nearby figures, dice rolling step of combat has come and gone.

 

However, this works both ways. The Hybrid Sentinel's "Prey on the Weak" ability does not trigger if only if the "fire breathed" figures have low might. However, if the initial target has a low might, the entire attack gains +1 wound.

 

On the other hand, the "Cloak of Deception" ability says that if you pass the test "you are not affected by the attack." You could avoid being damaged from either a direct attack, or a blast/fire breath with this gear.


Edited by Zaltyre, 09 June 2014 - 09:31 AM.

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#9 Steve-O

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:01 PM

I think some people may have misunderstood what I was saying.

It's true that most abilities which allow you to cancel a surge (like Heavy Cloak) require that the figure with the ability be a target, not merely affected.

 

That's not what I was saying.

 

What I was saying is that IF an ability allows you cancel a surge, the surge is removed from the WHOLE ATTACK.  ie: If you roll 2 surges, but one gets cancelled because the target is wearing a Heavy Cloak, you only have 1 surge to spend on the attack against everyone affected.  You don't get 1 surge against the target and 2 surges against everyone else.


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#10 Kunzite

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:44 PM

^^ This is true.

 

We just like to over complicate everything here ^.~


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#11 Zaltyre

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:23 PM

I think some people may have misunderstood what I was saying.

It's true that most abilities which allow you to cancel a surge (like Heavy Cloak) require that the figure with the ability be a target, not merely affected.

 

That's not what I was saying.

 

What I was saying is that IF an ability allows you cancel a surge, the surge is removed from the WHOLE ATTACK.  ie: If you roll 2 surges, but one gets cancelled because the target is wearing a Heavy Cloak, you only have 1 surge to spend on the attack against everyone affected.  You don't get 1 surge against the target and 2 surges against everyone else.

Indeed. My comment was more directed at the OP than at you, Steve-O. The wording of attack cards can be very tricky, so I err on the side of over-explanation. 



#12 Sixko

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:11 AM

2. The time to use the cloak is "after dice are rolled" since the attack doesn't blast (or fire breath) until the spend surges step, by the time the attack is affecting nearby figures, dice rolling step of combat has come and gone.

 

 

Im not sure if this is actually correct, I seem to recall this was discussed in some other thread and it was concluded that "after dice are rolled" doesnt mean exactly after dice are rolled but that the later steps of combat are also "after dice are rolled".

Someone please correct me if I am wrong :)



#13 Zaltyre

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:34 PM

 

2. The time to use the cloak is "after dice are rolled" since the attack doesn't blast (or fire breath) until the spend surges step, by the time the attack is affecting nearby figures, dice rolling step of combat has come and gone.

 

 

Im not sure if this is actually correct, I seem to recall this was discussed in some other thread and it was concluded that "after dice are rolled" doesnt mean exactly after dice are rolled but that the later steps of combat are also "after dice are rolled".

Someone please correct me if I am wrong :)

 

Sixko,

 

To me, the comment from Justin in  http://boardgamegeek...have-to-be-used where Justin says,   "Regardless any and all rerolls must be applied during the "Roll Dice" step. Yes, this means that, technically players wouldn't be able to check the range before deciding whether or not to reroll, but enforcement of such a thing seems a bit folly."

 

I believe in that situation he is referring to a card with an "after dice are rolled" trigger, and saying that must be during step 2, before step 3.

 

In the previous example, we've also got a bit of a paradox- if the guy with the cloak waits until the fire breath affects him to cancel the "fire breath" surge (if he were allowed to do that,) he'd be cancelling a surge that caused the attack to affect him, in which case he wouldn't be able to use the cloak since he wouldn't be involved in the attack in the first place. All of that weirdness is avoided by keeping the phases of combat in order.


Edited by Zaltyre, 10 June 2014 - 12:37 PM.


#14 Steve-O

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 06:14 AM

To me, the comment from Justin in  http://boardgamegeek...have-to-be-used where Justin says,   "Regardless any and all rerolls must be applied during the "Roll Dice" step. Yes, this means that, technically players wouldn't be able to check the range before deciding whether or not to reroll, but enforcement of such a thing seems a bit folly."
 
I believe in that situation he is referring to a card with an "after dice are rolled" trigger, and saying that must be during step 2, before step 3.


Justin is talking specifically about reroll effects here. Perhaps the specific card cited does use an "after dice are rolled" trigger, but the triggering condition is beside the point. What he's saying is that all rerolls must be completed in Step 2.

 

In other words, all rolling of dice must be done in the "Roll Dice" step.

 

I don't think it's fair to apply this comment to all "after dice are rolled" effects, because not all such effects involve rolling dice.  Heavy Cloak is still limited by the "target" condition and that's important for the logical reasons you mentioned, but in general I would allow "after dice are rolled" effects to be resolved during the Spend Surges step, if it made sense.


Edited by Steve-O, 12 June 2014 - 06:18 AM.


#15 Zaltyre

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 07:02 AM

 

I don't think it's fair to apply this comment to all "after dice are rolled" effects, because not all such effects involve rolling dice.  Heavy Cloak is still limited by the "target" condition and that's important for the logical reasons you mentioned, but in general I would allow "after dice are rolled" effects to be resolved during the Spend Surges step, if it made sense.

 

I may be making an undue generalization, but just the same, I think I'll seek an official answer on when "after dice are rolled" ends. 

 

Let's say hypothetically that there were a piece of armor that granted "stealthy," forcing more range to hit the target. If a target were to exhaust this gear immediately "after dice are rolled," no problem- it would just influence whether or not the attack misses. What if, however, the target waited until the attacker had spent all surges, had recovered a wound and caused blast? Retroactively allowing the attack to be made a range miss seems a bit over-complicated doesn't it? 



#16 BentoSan

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 01:00 PM

I swear there was a thread not that long ago where we had an in depth discussion on this very "after the dice are rolled" topic. Can't for the life of me remember what the topic was however.



#17 Zaltyre

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 01:24 PM

I swear there was a thread not that long ago where we had an in depth discussion on this very "after the dice are rolled" topic. Can't for the life of me remember what the topic was however.

What is the timing of "uncontrolled power" and "Rune Mastery"? Because that was my thread. All that resolved was that the trigger on "Rune mastery" should be "after dice are rolled," and therefore it's a game of chicken between the OL card and the hero skill. What that answer didn't address was when the game of chicken ends. I put the response in the FFG Sez thread, bottom of pg 9.


Edited by Zaltyre, 12 June 2014 - 01:26 PM.


#18 BentoSan

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 01:46 PM

 

I swear there was a thread not that long ago where we had an in depth discussion on this very "after the dice are rolled" topic. Can't for the life of me remember what the topic was however.

What is the timing of "uncontrolled power" and "Rune Mastery"? Because that was my thread. All that resolved was that the trigger on "Rune mastery" should be "after dice are rolled," and therefore it's a game of chicken between the OL card and the hero skill. What that answer didn't address was when the game of chicken ends. I put the response in the FFG Sez thread, bottom of pg 9.

 

 

http://community.fan...n/#entry1040456

 

So basically you have in between the moment after the dice are rolled until its such a point that you are actually distributing the damage to play a "after dice are rolled" effect.



#19 Zaltyre

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 02:21 PM

 


 

http://community.fan...n/#entry1040456

 

So basically you have in between the moment after the dice are rolled until its such a point that you are actually distributing the damage to play a "after dice are rolled" effect.

 

I'm not sure where you're drawing that conclusion from that answer- all it says to me is that "after dice are rolled" at least extends to the end of step 2.The question is whether "after dice are rolled" extends just to the end of step 2 (effectively 3, I think everyone can agree that enforcing something occurring before range is checked is difficult) or if it extends through step 4, and I didn't see that addressed in the response I received in that thread.



#20 Zaltyre

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 09:06 AM

Got an answer from FFG.
 
Rule Question:
Does "after dice are rolled" mean "during the roll dice step, but after rolling dice," or "any time after dice are rolled, until the attack is resolved?" Thanks!
 
            Answer:
            After dice is immediately after dice. Once players have had the opportunity to trigger any of their after dice                 abilities, the attack progresses to the Check Range step, and players can no longer use after dice abilities. 
 
            Thanks,
                Nathan Hajek

Edited by Zaltyre, 18 June 2014 - 09:07 AM.





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