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Rebel Aces Spoilers on Team Covenant


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#361 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:14 PM

From now on, whenever I play against a TIE swarm, I'm going to make my opponent measure range 1 from the opposite side of the base.

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#362 Aminar

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:17 PM

From now on, whenever I play against a TIE swarm, I'm going to make my opponent measure range 1 from the opposite side of the base.


Yeah, that's not helping your case. The rules for measuring change based on a number of criteria but the biggest one to remember is that it should be measured to create the lowest possible number. Otherwise ordnance would be far better than it is. It's one of those rules of thumb.
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#363 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:25 PM

Rules text?

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#364 Aminar

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:27 PM

Rules text?


You know the rules text and where to find it as well as I do. being absurd because you're irritated doesn't become you. You're better than that.

#365 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:29 PM

You said it's a rule of thumb, but I must have missed a part in the actual rulebook where it says that. Unless you're talking about measuring closest to closest, at which point we're back to square one.

Please don't pretend like the burden of proof is on someone else when you make an assertion and get called out on it. That kind of absurdity doesn't become you. If you can't (or won't) cite it, don't say it.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 09 June 2014 - 05:31 PM.

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#366 Aminar

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:32 PM

You said it's a rule of thumb, but I must have missed a part in the actual rulebook where it says that. Unless you're talking about measuring closest to closest, at which point we're back to square one.
Please don't pretend like the burden of proof is on someone else when you make an assertion and get called out on it. That kind of absurdity doesn't become you.

Closest to closest is making the range as short as it can, The rule of thumb I mentioned. I said that in response to you saying you were going to make ties measure firing arcs from the back, which is both clearly against the rules and something I know you don't believe you can do.

#367 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:34 PM

I see. So I was expected to comprehend your mangling of the rules text (which is one hell of an inference) rather than you doing the easy thing and just giving me a page number. Or, you know, actually saying what the rules say.

No, obviously I don't believe I can measure from the back of the base, not with Howl and certainly not with Jan.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 09 June 2014 - 05:36 PM.

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#368 Aminar

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:46 PM

I see. So I was expected to comprehend your mangling of the rules text (which is one hell of an inference) rather than you doing the easy thing and just giving me a page number. Or, you know, actually saying what the rules say.
No, obviously I don't believe I can measure from the back of the base, not with Howl and certainly not with Jan.

Not when attacking. When measuring for abilities, if the ship is behind you, you most certainly can and should be measuring from the back. And summarizing is not mangling.

#369 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:04 PM

Using other words that don't remotely resemble the rules text is most certainly mangling. I wouldn't even dignify your comment as a paraphrase.

When measuring for abilities, you still measure from the edge, whether it's the rear edge or the front. You don't measure across the base, which was what "back" obviously meant in this context, seeing as how I was actually agreeing with you.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 09 June 2014 - 06:07 PM.

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#370 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:11 PM

From now on, whenever I play against a TIE swarm, I'm going to make my opponent measure range 1 from the opposite side of the base.

Yeah, that's not helping your case. The rules for measuring change based on a number of criteria but the biggest one to remember is that it should be measured to create the lowest possible number. Otherwise ordnance would be far better than it is. It's one of those rules of thumb.
  

You said it's a rule of thumb, but I must have missed a part in the actual rulebook where it says that. Unless you're talking about measuring closest to closest, at which point we're back to square one.
Please don't pretend like the burden of proof is on someone else when you make an assertion and get called out on it. That kind of absurdity doesn't become you. If you can't (or won't) cite it, don't say it.

  

You said it's a rule of thumb, but I must have missed a part in the actual rulebook where it says that. Unless you're talking about measuring closest to closest, at which point we're back to square one.
Please don't pretend like the burden of proof is on someone else when you make an assertion and get called out on it. That kind of absurdity doesn't become you.

Closest to closest is making the range as short as it can, The rule of thumb I mentioned. I said that in response to you saying you were going to make ties measure firing arcs from the back, which is both clearly against the rules and something I know you don't believe you can do.

You guys are now talking about the archaic rule where you were allowed to beat your wife/children/servants as long as the stick was no wider than your thumb? C'mon folks, that doesn't even belong in the rules subforum.

#371 catachan23

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:27 PM

You guys are now talking about the archaic rule where you were allowed to beat your wife/children/servants as long as the stick was no wider than your thumb? C'mon folks, that doesn't even belong in the rules subforum.

Rule of thumb?  Cant do much damage with that now, can we?

 

Maybe it should have been rule of wrist?

Rule+of+Wrist.jpg

 

Really guys, we need to tone it down.


Edited by catachan23, 09 June 2014 - 06:28 PM.

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#372 mazz0

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:29 PM

Aaaarrg someone should teach them about the comma!

What Comma? The card itself is "B-Wing only. Modification." That's perfectly fine. It's exactly how the Phantom mods work. Nothing on the card suggests it can't go on named pilots. Literally nothing?
 
 
This is that the site listed/reported
 

B-Wing/E2
non-unique B-Wing modification only
Your upgrade bar gains the [CREW] icon

 
If the line was "non-unique, B-Wing modification only" then it would mean a non-unique card, b-wing mod only.  No comma means the modification is for a non-unique b-wing.
 
Sorry I took the report at their word and againg read it in proper english.
 
I will admit it on the internet for everyone to read... I was mistaken and you were right.  Happy now?  You win the internet!
The meaning is ambiguous either way. The comma does not clarify it. Which means you have to look at context. So next time, read the card before assuming what it does based on a comma. Yes it's a list, it should have a comma. But that whole section isn't punctuated. Context is the key. Context trumps grammar.

I disagree, without the comma it's not ambiguous, it refers to non-unique b-wings. Further more, grammar makes things explicit so that the meaning is less dependent on context and interpretation, and, you know, more meaningful. For me language that clearly conveys a meaning with as little room for misunderstanding is better language, and grammar aids that. If you have to say "well technically theve said this, but this meaning seems more likely" then that's poor language. Without having read the card text Dandirk was right. And in terms of the context - frankly I think if anything it made it more likely to mean what he thought - cards aren't normally referred to as non-unique.

What's this all about anyway? We got some new toys coming?
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#373 mazz0

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:43 PM

The range zero explanation make sense to me, however it's not clear. As has been pointed out, just because all range measurements so far depicted pictorially have been aimed outwards from the ships base doesn't mean that's the only way it can be done. Going by the wording of the rule it does make sense that you could place the ruler against the edge of your ship, pointing in towards the ship's peg. I doubt that's what FFG meant, but that's the most literal interpretation of the rule in my view, and there's something to be said for adopting the most literal interpretation whenever there's ambiguity.

That said, we already have a mechanism in the book for resolving ambiguity - we roll for it, like ladies.

Edited by mazz0, 09 June 2014 - 06:45 PM.


#374 Lagomorphia

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:01 PM

Why doesn't someone just email FFG already? Ziggy's done it twice, they're quite happy to answer.



#375 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:09 PM

Why doesn't someone just email FFG already? Ziggy's done it twice, they're quite happy to answer.

 

The official rulebook doesn't say anything about email, so I'm not sure that we're allowed to do that. And even if we were, I wouldn't know how.

 

Can I email myself?


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#376 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:41 PM

Why doesn't someone just email FFG already? Ziggy's done it twice, they're quite happy to answer.

 
The official rulebook doesn't say anything about email, so I'm not sure that we're allowed to do that. And even if we were, I wouldn't know how.
 
Can I email myself?
Depends. Are you 0,1,2,3,4, or five range bands away from Minnesota

You could also write them an actual letter. Watch out though that the post office measures you from the closest part of your city to Minniapolis and not the center when they charge you for postage.
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#377 Captain Lackwit

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:27 PM

And make sure you have the right delivery service. Don't want to go in with a generic delivery driver.


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#378 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:17 AM

Alright, so what's the best way for FFG to resolve this issue? Should they just slap a bandaid on it with a FAQ entry for Jan that coincides with their vision of the card? Should they go back through the core rules and ensure that each instance of measuring, whether for TL, attacking, or upgrade/pilot abilities, is uniformly and consistently applied the same way? Or should they explicitly define the range bands, so that anything making reference to them, whether at or within, can be uniformly and consistently applied the same way?

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#379 sirhc

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:38 AM

You know what? It's funny you mention range bands to things. There's a pretty skilled guy at our FLGS that starts to measure range and maneuvers to people he talks to after a long tournament.

Which brings me to...

If I live in California, what would be my range increment to Minnesota?

Edited by sirhc, 10 June 2014 - 12:42 AM.





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