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Yet another red viper question


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#1 IXIMrPinkIXI

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 02:23 PM

Is the red viper immune to queen daenerys' horde.
I remember hearing on one of the agot pod casts (can't remember which one) that if your not sure just assume he is immune...so.
Can I declare the viper as a defender?

#2 ktom

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 02:49 PM

No. The rule of thumb is to look at how the effect is worded. If it says "characters can/can't be..." The Viper (or any immune card; let's remember that this is an immunity question more than anything else) will be immune. If it says "players/opponents can/can't do...", then immunity on the character doesn't apply because the effect is applied directly to the player, not the character. It doesn't matter that the two different wordings have the same practical effect. You have to run with the text you're given.

QDH's text says "opponents cannot," so the effect is on the player, not the character, and the Viper cannot be immune to it.

#3 IXIMrPinkIXI

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:55 PM

So if an effect targets the player an immune character is not immune for example theon greyjoy (sow) says after a player counts income.... So the viper is not immune to this kill effect?

#4 ktom

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 08:18 PM

No. That's something of an oversimplification, actually.

 

Remember that immunity does two separate things:

 

1. Prevents the immune card from being "chosen" as a target of whatever it is immune to.

2. Allows the immune card to ignore all direct effects on it from whatever it is immune to.

 

SoW-Theon says "After a player counts income, he or she must choose and kill a character he or she controls." It doesn't matter who is doing the "choosing," only what is being chosen. So The Viper (or any "immune to character abilities" card) is going to be immune to Theon because of #1 - he can't be chosen as a target.

 

However, remember that an effect has no target unless it says to "choose" something. Queen Dany's Hoard does not "target" players because it doesn't "choose" them. In fact, it doesn't "choose" anything at all, so #1 isn't going to help you figure out if "character ability" immunity will protect the character. That's where the discussion that QDH's direct effect is on your opponent, not his characters. That means #2 is not going to help The Viper (or other immune card) because the direct effects are not on him, so he cannot ignore them.

 

An example of where #2 is what matters would be Westeros Bleeds. It doesn't "choose" anything, either, so there are no targets and #1 doesn't help. However, it says to discard all characters from play - meaning that it works directly on the characters. So event immune characters will be able to ignore it under #2.






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