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Return to Mirkwood Nightmare Forced Question


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#1 kyrie

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 08:25 PM

The Nightmare instruction for Return to Mirkwood reads:

 

Forced: At the beginning of the quest phase, the player who is guarding Gollum must either exhaust a hero he controls or resolve the "when revealed" effect of the topmost Tantrum card in the encounter discard pile. 

 

According to the latest FAQ, when a card reads "must either" the player can choose between either of the forced effects, though he must completely fulfill the effect (the key word here is "either" in contrast with the ruling above it in the FAQ).

 

My question is: If there are no Tantrum cards in the discard pile, can I still choose the second effect and therefore avoid exhausting a hero and resolving a Tantrum card? That is the way I have been playing it. Otherwise, exhausting a hero is really nasty at the beginning of the quest and makes this nightmare even more "nighmare-ish". Just wanted to follow the ruling on this one, since the FAQ addresses it.


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#2 Chris51261

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 03:32 PM

I played this one that you had to fully resolve one of the two options, so you would have to pick one you're able to do. I wasn't entirely sure whether or not you could do what you're suggesting either, I just sort of assumed the correct ruling is usually the one that makes it harder on the player, lol.
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#3 Chris51261

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 03:38 PM

Looking at the FAQ (1.44), you have to do one in full, so if you can't reveal a tantrum card you have to exhaust a hero. Harder for the player, as usual. :)
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#4 Mndela

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 04:01 PM

Sure? Look at this card....

 

M1408.png

 

 

When Revealed: The first player (choose 1): deals 1 damage to all allies in play and Followed by Night gains surge, or all enemies engaged with players make an immediate attack, if able.

 

 

And when players see this card in setup are glad, because they can chose 2nd option without problems.


Edited by Mndela, 06 June 2014 - 04:02 PM.

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#5 Chris51261

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:21 PM

But that's not a tantrum card?



#6 Mndela

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 03:20 AM

I mean that this card has 2 options, and you can try one of them even if not has effect


Edited by Mndela, 07 June 2014 - 03:20 AM.

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#7 Chris51261

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 10:20 AM

I think that card works because once you choose the second option, you're still carrying it out, just that there is 0 enemies to attack you. The "must either" wording on the card means you have to carry it out to the fullest effect, and it doesn't seem like you're fulfilling it unless you're revealing a tantrum card. I could be wrong though, it's a very tricky ruling. 


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#8 kyrie

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:54 PM

@ Chris51261: This is why I am so confused. For the Followed by Night treachery, yes you are still carrying out the effect, even though no enemies attack. But in the same way, you can choose the Tantrum effect even if there are no Tantrum cards. The "must either" means you get to choose, but the one you do choose, you must do everything it says (or at least try to).

 

If this was not the case, then they would inverse the wording on it: Forced: At the beginning of the quest phase, the player who is guarding Gollum must resolve the "when revealed" effect of the topmost Tantrum card in the encounter discard pile or exhaust a hero he controls.

 

But it uses the key "must either" which entails a choice.

 

What if you were not able to exhaust a hero at the beginning of the quest phase because you did something else with them already, and there were no Tantrum cards in the discard pile? This would create an "unresolvable" effect by the way you are taking it to be. The player cannot do either of the effects, and therefore cannot resolve the card.

 

Therefore, I think the spirit of the FAQ and the card in question (Return to Mirkwood Nightmare) is that the player must choose one option, whether or not it actually does anything.


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#9 Chris51261

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 05:47 PM

That's a good point, I hadn't even thought of that. I'm still a little confused, and now I'm very curious as to the exact rules on making a choice like this are. I suppose there are other cards that you can pick and choose so that they have no effect, just that the wording on this one is new and says you have to "fully fulfill" an option. Maybe I'll shoot a question to FFG, see if they can shed some light on it. 



#10 booored

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:00 PM

if the card has multiple options to choose from, you can choose either option.. even if that option fizzles and can not resolve. 


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#11 PsychoRocka

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 01:34 AM

if the card has multiple options to choose from, you can choose either option.. even if that option fizzles and can not resolve.

Wrong, you can only choose either if either is doable. If one of the two options is not doable you must do the other.

#12 Chris51261

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 02:37 PM

I re-read the rules on the issue with "must either," and it sounds like what PsychoRocka is saying is correct. If one of the options is possible to fulfill in full, you have to choose that one. Meaning that if you hadn't exhausted all your heroes, you would have to do that if no tantrum cards were in the discard pile, and if you had exhausted all of them, any tantrum cards in the discard pile would have to resolve their "when revealed effects." I'm still not positive when the card says to "choose one," you might actually be able to pick options that will do nothing. I sent a question in already asking, will let everyone know when they message back.


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#13 kyrie

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 05:35 PM

I sent a question in already asking, will let everyone know when they message back.

 

Sounds good. Thanks!


"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins, The Fellowship of the Ring

 


#14 booored

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 06:28 PM

if the card has multiple options to choose from, you can choose either option.. even if that option fizzles and can not resolve.

Wrong, you can only choose either if either is doable. If one of the two options is not doable you must do the other.


Not true, you might wana read the rule book again. There is nothing to say you have to choose the one that doesn't fail. Look at the example Mneda posted
 

Sure? Look at this card....

M1408.png


When Revealed: The first player (choose 1): deals 1 damage to all allies in play and Followed by Night gains surge, or all enemies engaged with players make an immediate attack, if able.


And when players see this card in setup are glad, because they can chose 2nd option without problems.


He is correct, there is nothing saying you can not choose which one you like even if it fizzles.

Edited by booored, 08 June 2014 - 06:29 PM.

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#15 PsychoRocka

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 10:11 PM

Looking at the FAQ (1.44), you have to do one in full, so if you can't reveal a tantrum card you have to exhaust a hero. Harder for the player, as usual. :)

Look at this post however...

Followed By Night must be an exception then.... (or was created when this game was young and was worded badly) as in almost all other cases I've seen rulings in both the FAQ/Rules and people that have asked Caleb come back with: that one option must be fully resolved and able to occur or you must choose the other.


Edited by PsychoRocka, 08 June 2014 - 10:13 PM.


#16 PsychoRocka

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 10:20 PM

http://community.fan...ondor-quest-1b/

Read this thread. Both cards use Must and Or (nightmare setup card for return to mirkwood and blood of gondor quest card) thereford OBVIOUSLY both act the same.

Followed by Night is clearly a special exception as it states that the first player may choose (and does not specify that if one fizzles/has no effect it cannot be chosen). I had not read this clearly but now that I have see the clear difference. This example is clearly a unique one as almost all over cards that present a "choice" almost always have MUST and OR as part of their text though so with this card you are correct however 9 times out of 10 encounter cards with a "choice" have MUST and OR as part of their text so this seems an exception to the rule.
 

Nightmare setup for Return to Mirkwood however most definitely does state MUST and OR therefore if there are no tantrum treacheries in the discard pile you MUST exhaust a hero.



#17 PsychoRocka

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 10:22 PM

I mean that this card has 2 options, and you can try one of them even if not has effect

It has very clearly different text and rules to the nightmare setup card for return to mirkwood.



#18 Chris51261

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 10:39 PM

 

Looking at the FAQ (1.44), you have to do one in full, so if you can't reveal a tantrum card you have to exhaust a hero. Harder for the player, as usual. :)

Look at this post however...

Followed By Night must be an exception then.... (or was created when this game was young and was worded badly) as in almost all other cases I've seen rulings in both the FAQ/Rules and people that have asked Caleb come back with: that one option must be fully resolved and able to occur or you must choose the other.

 

 

I think you're right, the "must either" and "must or" are direct results from people being able to take cards where you make a choice and have them do nothing. Having to choose an effect that fully triggers if possible gives those treacheries or whatever card it may be a little more bite. So we can still see what FFG says when they get back to me, but I think that cards like Followed by Night you can choose an effect that may effectively have no impact, as it is an older card. At least that's the way I'm reading it. We shall see. =)


Edited by Chris51261, 08 June 2014 - 10:42 PM.

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#19 PsychoRocka

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 10:53 PM

 

 

Looking at the FAQ (1.44), you have to do one in full, so if you can't reveal a tantrum card you have to exhaust a hero. Harder for the player, as usual. :)

Look at this post however...

Followed By Night must be an exception then.... (or was created when this game was young and was worded badly) as in almost all other cases I've seen rulings in both the FAQ/Rules and people that have asked Caleb come back with: that one option must be fully resolved and able to occur or you must choose the other.

 

 

I think you're right, the "must either" and "must or" are direct results from people being able to take cards where you make a choice and have them do nothing. Having to choose an effect that fully triggers if possible gives those treacheries or whatever card it may be a little more bite. So we can still see what FFG says when they get back to me, but I think that cards like Followed by Night you can choose an effect that may effectively have no impact, as it is an older card. At least that's the way I'm reading it. We shall see. =)

 

Yup much more thematic as well. You must guard gollum with a hero every turn or face one of his nasty tantrums!

Plus imagine for 3 or 4 turns that no tantrums did show up and there were still none in the discard pile... that would mean for the first 3 or 4 turns you would not have to exhaust a hero OR resolve a tantrum... far too easy for nightmare.



#20 Mndela

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:48 AM

Stricken-Dumb.jpg

 

When Revealed: You must either shuffle the top card of the burden deck into the encounter deck and reveal an additional encounter card, or raise each player's threat by 3 and immediately end the quest phase (do not resolve the quest).

 

'Must either' if i remember... the player who has revealed this card can chose 1 of the options.


A wizard is never late..., he arrives precisely when it is the last round





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