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Who of you is housreuling immobilize?


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#21 Steve-O

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 05:40 PM

I am curious to know if houseruling it is common practice as I am thinking of doing so myself.


House ruling Descent is definitely not common practice, at least as far as the active online community is concerned.

Given how many rules questions this game generates, I can understand that attitiude, too. Whether it makes sense or not, it helps to have a common basis for rules discussions, and nothing's more common than RAW. =P

Of course, it doesn't need to be common practice to validate your application of house rules. Do what you like to keep the game fun in your group.


What are your thoughts, do any of you have experience with similar house rules?


Although I try to avoid house rules in Descent myself, movement is one of the few things I have allowed myself to tinker with. It all started when I realized that, by RAW, one needs to keep track of whether the individual MP he's spending to move into this space was granted by fatigue or by a Move action, or some other source. Because sometimes if you're moving "by fatigue" it makes a difference in how things resolve.

My house rules effectively amount to making MP be MP, regardless of source. Moving is moving, "Move Actions" are just another source of MP. Immobilize ends up getting altered in a manner very similar to what you suggest here, among other things, and we don't find to be broken at all. Yeah, it stops you cold when it hits you, but there are ways for the heroes to get rid of it and monsters are expendable to begin with.

#22 griton

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 09:53 AM

Honestly even though the designer that took over has made the current rulings, I don't think that's the way it should be interpreted. The "house rule" from the OP doesn't empower immobilize, it just removes the loopholes created by an interesting official interpretation of the rules.

Assuming that official published rules are misprinted in the absence of other official published rules creating contradictions is generally not a good plan. As is assuming that the original design team (these things don't happen in a vacuum) intended something other than what is printed.

 

Balance issues aside, I think one of the big problems with Immobilize is the name on the card. If the name of the condition was "Hampered", "Slowed", or "Restricted Movement", there wouldn't be quite as much confusion about it since it wouldn't imply (just by reading the name of the condition and not the rules on the card) that all movement is prohibited.

 

 

 

It all started when I realized that, by RAW, one needs to keep track of whether the individual MP he's spending to move into this space was granted by fatigue or by a Move action, or some other source. Because sometimes if you're moving "by fatigue" it makes a difference in how things resolve.


My house rules effectively amount to making MP be MP, regardless of source. Moving is moving, "Move Actions" are just another source of MP. Immobilize ends up getting altered in a manner very similar to what you suggest here, among other things, and we don't find to be broken at all. Yeah, it stops you cold when it hits you, but there are ways for the heroes to get rid of it and monsters are expendable to begin with.

Here, I think the big problem is less the way movement is handled and more the fact that there are traps that make handling it that way a necessity. "Play this card when a hero enters an empty space during a move action ... end his move action" could have easily been changed to "Play this card when a hero enters an empty space ... loses all remaining movement points". Likewise the card that allows for movement of monsters based on fatigue movement could just be changed to suffering fatigue to gain movement points without too much issue. There are very slight differences, but I don't think they are so significant as to be majorly game-changing (though I could be wrong).

 

This way, you only change the cards that cause problems instead of all of the movement rules AND the cards that cause issues.


Edited by griton, 11 June 2014 - 09:54 AM.


#23 ProtoPersona

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:32 AM

Although I try to avoid house rules in Descent myself, movement is one of the few things I have allowed myself to tinker with. It all started when I realized that, by RAW, one needs to keep track of whether the individual MP he's spending to move into this space was granted by fatigue or by a Move action, or some other source. Because sometimes if you're moving "by fatigue" it makes a difference in how things resolve.


My house rules effectively amount to making MP be MP, regardless of source. Moving is moving, "Move Actions" are just another source of MP. Immobilize ends up getting altered in a manner very similar to what you suggest here, among other things, and we don't find to be broken at all. Yeah, it stops you cold when it hits you, but there are ways for the heroes to get rid of it and monsters are expendable to begin with.

 

 

I'd actually like to know the details of your house rule Steve-O. You've usually been one of the more experienced and knowledgeable players on these forums, so I'd like to know what you came up with.



#24 Steve-O

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 08:57 PM

Here, I think the big problem is less the way movement is handled and more the fact that there are traps that make handling it that way a necessity. "Play this card when a hero enters an empty space during a move action ... end his move action" could have easily been changed to "Play this card when a hero enters an empty space ... loses all remaining movement points".


I agree completely, and the basic gist of the house rules we use is to accomplish exactly that. However, rather than writing errata for specific cards (which would require us to go through every card in the game looking for those needing correction), we just laid down a set of basic principles that modify the rules as a whole. House rules, if you will. =P
 

I'd actually like to know the details of your house rule Steve-O. You've usually been one of the more experienced and knowledgeable players on these forums, so I'd like to know what you came up with.


Okay, here's what we're using. Note rule #5 is essentially the same as what the OP was proposing regarding Immobilize.  "Pick up your figure and place it down elsewhere" is not spending MPs, likewise being forced to move by another figure's actions is not this figure spending MPs, so those things still work just fine.


1) A Move Action is now an instant effect that grants MP equal to Speed, over as soon as it is declared, and the figure may then spend those MPs throughout his turn as he sees fit. The rules for interrupting a Move Action are no longer required.

2) Any other ability that allows a figure to "move" likewise grants an appropriate number of MPs which may then be spent to move.  In general, these MPs go into the same pool as "Move Action" or "Fatigue" MPs and become indistinguishable from those.

 

2a) If a special ability grants "movement with benefits" (ie: Silhouette) or "movement during another player's turn" (ie: Syndrael) then the MPs gained by those abilities must be spent immediately, in the course of resolving the ability itself. These MPs cannot be "saved for later" or mixed in with "normal MPs" - ie: everything else. Likewise, any ability that specifies the timing of the movement (ie: "immediately move X and then attack.")

3) Any effect that triggers "during a Move Action" is now considered to trigger when the figure "enters a space" via spending MP. Doesn't matter where the MP came from.

4) Any effect that causes a Move Action to "immediately end" is now considered to drain the figure's unspent MP pool to zero. The figure can acquire new MPs to continue moving, if possible. Used in the middle of a "movement with benefits" ability, such as Silhouette's, this drains all MP; those granted by the special ability as well as any unspent MPs from fatigue, etc.

5) Immobilize prevents the expenditure of MP. Figures can still gain MPs from various abilities if they want, but they can't spend them, and thus cannot move. Immobilize still reduces the figure's current MP pool to zero when played, per the FAQ.

6) Large figures still shrink and expand as usual. After a figure has shrunk, expanding again will zero out the figure's MP pool. Alternatively, a large figure may "interrupt" its movement to perform another action. Interrupting requires the figure to expand, but does not zero the MP pool. Akin to official rulings, the large figure must be able to perform the desired secondary action from the single space it occupies before it can interrupt its movement like this.

(Rule #6 is basically reconstructing the interrupt rules for large figures, since rule #1 removes the concept of interrupting move actions in general. This may seem like a lot of busy work to the outside observer, but our purpose was to negate the difference between "move action" movement and other types of movement by making all movement just be "spending MPs." That said, the dynamics of large monster movement really require the interruption mechanic to keep a lid on "zero-move shrink/expand" shenanigans. We don't find it too hard to follow these house rules, but we also know what we meant when we wrote them. =P)


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#25 ProtoPersona

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 02:08 AM

Okay, here's what we're using. Note rule #5 is essentially the same as what the OP was proposing regarding Immobilize.  "Pick up your figure and place it down elsewhere" is not spending MPs, likewise being forced to move by another figure's actions is not this figure spending MPs, so those things still work just fine.

1) A Move Action is now an instant effect that grants MP equal to Speed, over as soon as it is declared, and the figure may then spend those MPs throughout his turn as he sees fit. The rules for interrupting a Move Action are no longer required.

2) Any other ability that allows a figure to "move" likewise grants an appropriate number of MPs which may then be spent to move.  In general, these MPs go into the same pool as "Move Action" or "Fatigue" MPs and become indistinguishable from those.

 

2a) If a special ability grants "movement with benefits" (ie: Silhouette) or "movement during another player's turn" (ie: Syndrael) then the MPs gained by those abilities must be spent immediately, in the course of resolving the ability itself. These MPs cannot be "saved for later" or mixed in with "normal MPs" - ie: everything else. Likewise, any ability that specifies the timing of the movement (ie: "immediately move X and then attack.")

3) Any effect that triggers "during a Move Action" is now considered to trigger when the figure "enters a space" via spending MP. Doesn't matter where the MP came from.

4) Any effect that causes a Move Action to "immediately end" is now considered to drain the figure's unspent MP pool to zero. The figure can acquire new MPs to continue moving, if possible. Used in the middle of a "movement with benefits" ability, such as Silhouette's, this drains all MP; those granted by the special ability as well as any unspent MPs from fatigue, etc.

5) Immobilize prevents the expenditure of MP. Figures can still gain MPs from various abilities if they want, but they can't spend them, and thus cannot move. Immobilize still reduces the figure's current MP pool to zero when played, per the FAQ.

6) Large figures still shrink and expand as usual. After a figure has shrunk, expanding again will zero out the figure's MP pool. Alternatively, a large figure may "interrupt" its movement to perform another action. Interrupting requires the figure to expand, but does not zero the MP pool. Akin to official rulings, the large figure must be able to perform the desired secondary action from the single space it occupies before it can interrupt its movement like this.

(Rule #6 is basically reconstructing the interrupt rules for large figures, since rule #1 removes the concept of interrupting move actions in general. This may seem like a lot of busy work to the outside observer, but our purpose was to negate the difference between "move action" movement and other types of movement by making all movement just be "spending MPs." That said, the dynamics of large monster movement really require the interruption mechanic to keep a lid on "zero-move shrink/expand" shenanigans. We don't find it too hard to follow these house rules, but we also know what we meant when we wrote them. =P)

 

I like it. Totally gonna steal these.



#26 BentoSan

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 06:18 AM

Part of me likes those changes, part of me is scared that it makes webtrap an even more powerful card than it already is.



#27 Unknown X

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:40 AM

@Steve-O:I shall adopt all of those changes myself, it sounds so NEAT!^^

 

 

One last thing to say though about the issue with stuff like tripwire and fatigue.

 

I always understood it that tripwire not working on fatigue move has one very simple reason:
 

Fatigue points spend for moving really make no difference whether it is done square per square or all at once.

 

So the default assumption seems to be:

 

spend one fatigue, move one space, spend one fatigue, move one space, etc.

 

Since your movement pool then IS zero already after entering a space, it is logical that tripwire does not affect you, it would not do anything to you to start with after all.

 

 

If during our play we encounter trouble with this (namely with heroes suffering unduly from it), I shall report the results here though.



#28 sigmazero13

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:27 AM

So the default assumption seems to be:

 

spend one fatigue, move one space, spend one fatigue, move one space, etc.

 

Since your movement pool then IS zero already after entering a space, it is logical that tripwire does not affect you, it would not do anything to you to start with after all.

 

Doing that, though, makes you more susceptible to Pit Trap and getting Stunned; while not quite as bad as Immobilize, it still can wreck your plans pretty good.



#29 Imlus

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:04 AM

I really do not see the logic behind avoiding immobilize. What's the point to immobilize a hero, if he can always use heroic feat on himself and another hero to bypass the immobilize? It's like saying you cannot move, oh ok I will fly then and kill your monsters :).



#30 Steve-O

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 07:01 AM

I really do not see the logic behind avoiding immobilize. What's the point to immobilize a hero, if he can always use heroic feat on himself and another hero to bypass the immobilize? It's like saying you cannot move, oh ok I will fly then and kill your monsters :).


Yeah, there's a lot of that in Descent. Some people just live with it, others make house rules.

Myself, I try to live with it as much as possible (because I don't have the time to rewrite and rebalance everything,) but I did make an exception for movement rules, as above, because I just couldn't take it anymore. =P




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