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Player dissatisfaction about losing Shadow Rune Finale.


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#21 Indalecio

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 01:04 AM

The importance of Winning/Losing Quests is directly proportional to the skill level of the Overlord.  Letting Master Overlords have extra XP/relics can be as bad, or worse than, not having enough gold.

 

Jee

 

I respectfully disagree with you and Kunzite on this particular point.  You may have a different experience of the game and I respect that, but as far as my playgroups are concerned, OL rewards have never been at the centre of discussion as a critical object to either allow or deny for securing a win in a quest or even in the long term. OL relics have very marginal use, and heroes can often control them quite easily whenever the OL gets the chance to field them. Extra XP for the OL changes nothing as the OL cannot control his draws anyway. You can buy all the OL cards in the world and still lose terribly. The only way you can remedy that is giving up on encounter 1 and gather your whole deck in your hand upon starting encounter 2, which is arguably a cheaty way to put the odds in your favor. If that is what is required then it tells as much about balance in this game in general. In comparison, heroes can buy one good bow off the item shop deck and win every single encounter thanks to it thereafter. Extra XP means you can buy a card earlier than expected but I don't think it affects anything in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand, hero rewards, or whether getting them or giving up on them (for grabbing money instead) is the great question and the only one that has any real relevance.

 

Talking about skill level of the OL is just an easy way to say that if you can't manage your heroes and be in control in a campaign then it's probably because you lack experience. The only part of that I would agree with is that if your OL does not have the balls nor the wits to put up a decent challenge then he/she's pretty much screwed, raw luck aside. Apart from that, this game is random enough to make a OL with any skill level lose, and I will claim that equally skilled heroes will be in better position for defeating an overlord and his minions given the arsenal of possibilities they have access to thorough the campaign. 

 

In the best of the worlds I would wish that the game wasn't that hard on the Overlord so we could allow more players to play this role. I'm happy being the Overlord because I'm a total masochist in that game and get huge satisfaction destroying my opposition with a swipe or complex sequence of awesome plays that stupefy my audience. Yeah, it's a big show and even if they mock the actor most of the times they sometimes stop and look at you like you're Jesus fraking Christ. I love that. But right now nobody else would remotely like to replace me on a future campaign. Not a question of how clever my players are, just the fact that the Overlord is clearly not a role for everyone. I don't like the elitist part of that design, that's all. So speaking about the skill level of the OL only seems to emphasize on that accessibility issue.

 

Extra gold for the heroes is always better than any OL reward. I am adamant on that point. The sheer power of the items in the shop decks is the primary source of upgrade for the heroes, with class cards as a distant second. With good gear you can go all the way in a campaign. I will go even further and say that any weapon in the shop deck is better than any of the OL relics you can get (Staff of Dominion being an exception maybe). This is where you would typically disagree because what's actually printed on the card may prove me wrong for some of the better OL relics, but my point is that it doesn't matter what's printed on the card. It can say that you automatically defeat a hero on a surge or anything you like. You simply cannot use relics the way heroes use gear, you don't have access to them a huge % of the time, and when you do your Lieutenant can be managed by the heroes just as easily anyway. No need to have experienced hero players to do that as long as they have a rough idea of what the OL is toying with in terms of monsters and abilities.

 

I'm not saying you won't get a good mileage out of a relic on occasion, but I don't think that situation is very common to say the least.


Edited by Indalecio, 04 June 2014 - 08:37 AM.

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#22 Inspector Jee

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:36 AM

You make some good points, for sure.  But there are some pretty gnarly combos out there that the heroes don't tend to see coming until its too late.  If you play with Baron Z's plot deck you can pretty much control what cards you get and when, so a carefully crafted and situation-customized deck is a monster in that context.  That's just one example.

 

Also, winning means you get to send the Heroes wherever you want, potentially ruining combo pursuits, denying them side quests, or cutting their next quests' treasure in half.  There's an average of a little more than 2100 gold per campaign (not including side quests) and yeah, I might willingly trade that for every single victory along the way given the chance.  Depends on the campaign tho.

 

Jee



#23 BentoSan

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 08:30 PM

Baron Z's plot deck as well as saving overlord cards is easily countered by a wildlander making sure the overlord discards 1 OL card per turn.

 

 

I think that the OL character was not really that well thought out to begin with in the base game, the addition of plot cards was nice but there is still a lot lacking in terms of flavour of upgrades for the overlord in comparison to the heroes. That said i still enjoy playing the OL. The game could have been made a lot better for the overlord by giving him many of the same upgrade paths heroes have - for instance being able to equip master monsters with weapons/armours/relics would be totally badass if they were balanced correctly.



#24 Zaltyre

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:03 PM

 

I think that the OL character was not really that well thought out to begin with in the base game, the addition of plot cards was nice but there is still a lot lacking in terms of flavour of upgrades for the overlord in comparison to the heroes. That said i still enjoy playing the OL. The game could have been made a lot better for the overlord by giving him many of the same upgrade paths heroes have - for instance being able to equip master monsters with weapons/armours/relics would be totally badass if they were balanced correctly.

In my mind, the OL has upgrade paths- it's just that unlike the heroes, who specifically upgrade single characters with customization in weapons/armor, the OL gets more general upgrades in cards, and his customization comes from the use of different monsters. Instead of selling a sword and buying a bow, the OL chooses to leave the cave spiders in their dens and bring out the goblin archers.


Edited by Zaltyre, 04 June 2014 - 10:04 PM.


#25 BentoSan

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:28 PM

Obviously the upgrade path for the Overlord is different, however i do not think it captures any where near the same excitement as upgrades for heroes.



#26 Whitewing

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 10:33 AM

The overlord has far more options and decisions to make than any hero player does. He's got to choose his deck, his monster groups, monster placement, monster activation, reinforcements, when to play what card, plot deck, plot deck usage, when to take threat tokens, (I can go on forever).



#27 Kunzite

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 09:09 PM

The overlord has far more options and decisions to make than any hero player does. He's got to choose his deck, his monster groups, monster placement, monster activation, reinforcements, when to play what card, plot deck, plot deck usage, when to take threat tokens, (I can go on forever).

 

While this is true (and it is) the OL has less opportunists for his skills to be left to chance, like the heroes. Most all of the hero's abilities reply on that blue dice not being an X. 


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#28 PlainWhiteBread

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 09:56 PM

Indalecio, if you're concerned about your heroes getting too much good stuff, play Infector.

The last Shadow Rune campaign we played, I was the treasure hunter and thanks to my treasure-finding efforts we had secured the Dawnblade, Shield of Zorek's Favor, the Mending Talisman, the Dragontooth Hammer, Lightning Strike, Scalemail, Obsidian Scalemail, Bow of the Eclipse, the Black Iron Helm, the Rune Plate and Platemail, among various other trinkets and stuff. I was rolling Pierce 4 on every attack thanks to Sleight of Hand, and our mage was felling hordes of monsters with Lightning Strike's Blast combining with Plague Cloud. Seems like it was in the bag, right? Here's the kicker. We lost tremendously. We were undone by Kobolds and Zombies due to easy infection token generation: Blue/Yellow attacks versus Gray/Black Defense, combined with a surge, was two infection tokens each attack, multiplied by the small army of kobolds and zombies meant she nearly spent all her tokens! In the finale, Kunzite played Dark Host on me, forcing me to kill our mage (Pierce 4!) and making me wander into the path of the Farrows and two Ice Wyrms who promptly killed me. Two players removed from the game near the opening of the finale. She literally turned our advantage against us, and while I can't speak for Kunzite, I don't think anyone felt good about that outcome.

If you're really that concerned about your heroes getting too powerful, the Infector deck ignores most defense dice and actually benefits from heroes having good defense dice; Outbreak is a Might check that targets a hero and all others within 3 spaces, if failed does 1 damage plus one for each infection token the hero has, Infections can be 'popped' for a free damage per attack, not to mention Level 1 cards with constant effects to minimize the OL deck further, leaving greater chance to draw the cards you need. Baron Zachareth's plot deck with Infector is the stuff of nightmares; no amount of fortune is worth the torture that combo can put out.



#29 BentoSan

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 01:08 AM

I would argue Kobolds are broken, fixing one broken tactic with another seems ugly to me. Similar to using goblin archers, firing from impossible ranges for token generation, i really dont like it.

 

Edit: Take no prisoners sort of gaming style is great and all, however stretching it the point of exploiting the systems in place goes too far for me. They may be part of the rules, but i feel its against the spirit.


Edited by BentoSan, 06 June 2014 - 01:30 AM.

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#30 Kunzite

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:48 AM

I had the rare opportunity to re spec my deck in the middle of the game (Ritual of Shadows, OL win). Because my mage was tricked out on defense and playing hexer, I found it really hard to keep up, so I moved to infactor.

 

IF ANYONE IS GOING INFACTOR PLEASE READ THIS:

 

It is a very situational class. In order to play ANY of the lv two and up cards you need your lv one cards already sitting out AND your heroes having infections on them. I have had happen, on more then one occasion, where the lv one cards (the ones that stay out and help build infections on your heroes) are next to the bottom of my deck and I am left holding dead cards.

 

High risk. High reward.

 

If you play infactor you need to play with weak, easy to kill but numerous monsters. That is why harpies come with that set. That's why I take kobolds. If I have my lv one cards out, it doesn't matter if I hit, miss or fail to do enough damage due to their ability to block. Like Bread said, you are turning their greatest asset to a "Oh crap! Get them away!" ^.^ All monsters are now your very own undead/zombie hoard.

 

But if your heroes have blast, ways to get extra attacks and means to reach all of your monsters, speed or other means of  out witting you then you are SOL.

 

I got lucky that on encounter one I could drop both my lv one infector cards. Had that not happened then the outcome would have been VERY different. I will not brag about a lucky draw.


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"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#31 any2cards

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:57 AM

"Fortune favors the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur  :P


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#32 BentoSan

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 08:40 PM

Yeah you need the Baron Zach OL deck if you want to play infector to get the most out of it so you can draw the cards you need otherwise there is the potential for huge issues.



#33 Madmartigan

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 07:22 PM

We might be getting a bit afield of the topic of this thread, though I think we have addressed the issue.


"Everything will be alright, once we get to Tir Asleen."


#34 Kunzite

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:48 AM

Yeah you need the Baron Zach OL deck if you want to play infector to get the most out of it so you can draw the cards you need otherwise there is the potential for huge issues.

I would be to differ with this. While Zak might give you a sure-way into your cards, a dark ritual or two are pretty good and work just fine MOST of time time.


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

NotesFromTheOverlord.tumblr.com





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