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Chain Weapons vs. Power Field


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#41 ak-73

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 04:21 AM

As mentioned, it has lost Attack subtype officially. Also, All-Out Attacks can't be dodged/parried. If you play an Astartes with Killing Strike and are willing to expend a Fate Point.

 

Also, things like All-Out Attack has made me handle Reactions turn-based, not round-based. Like Dice Pools in Shadowrun (1E/2E at least), they refresh at the start of your turn, not start of the round. Turn-based Reactions prevent this:

 

"Oh, everyone acted before me? Ah well, I suppose I can go All-Out now because nobody can attack me before the start of the next round anyway."

 

Alex

 

PS Sorry, for changing subjects so rapidly. :lol:


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#42 Fgdsfg

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 07:49 AM

As mentioned, it has lost Attack subtype officially.

So it has. It lost it after Deathwatch, I think. It still had it in Rogue Trader.
 

Also, All-Out Attacks can't be dodged/parried. If you play an Astartes with Killing Strike and are willing to expend a Fate Point.

I first read that wrong and was going insane for a moment. You should probably have put a comma there, not punctuation. :lol:
 

Also, things like All-Out Attack has made me handle Reactions turn-based, not round-based. Like Dice Pools in Shadowrun (1E/2E at least), they refresh at the start of your turn, not start of the round. Turn-based Reactions prevent this:
 
"Oh, everyone acted before me? Ah well, I suppose I can go All-Out now because nobody can attack me before the start of the next round anyway."
 
Alex

I wrote a long reply to this before I realized... isn't this how it already works? I always assumed that Reactions refreshed when it's your Turn again, and we never paid any heed to the start of a new Round. I wasn't even aware that WH40kRP made a difference between the two, I thought the rules terminology judged "Turn" and "Round" basically interchangeable.
 

PS Sorry, for changing subjects so rapidly. :lol:

At least you stick to the subject during the course of your own post. I change stance while writing and working things out in my head, apparently changing subject even in my internal monologue. :P


Edited by Fgdsfg, 03 June 2014 - 08:49 AM.

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#43 Errant Knight

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 08:13 AM

Heh.  Don't worry if the conversation sometimes goes off-topic Alex.  Herodotus, the father of western history, started one of his 44 books (the first?) with a digression on why digressions were important to understanding.



#44 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 08:35 AM

Thoughts on higher level marines with chainswords:

 

  1.  Killing Strike talent. Nothing requires you to give that one bugger with the power sword a chance to parry. Equally, any talents which impede the defender's ability to parry or reduce his weapon skill are doubly valuable.
  2. Good quality chain weapons push close to the same damage potential or better due to Tearing, especially if you have Flesh Render for extra extra dice. Combine with any of the (several) abilities which let you trigger righteous fury on an improved roll, and you'll be doling out some serious critical damage. Just avoid the power weapon armed opponent (or just shoot him) and concentrate on shredding generic foes and tyranid beasties.
  3. Carry more than one. You can take Signature Wargear more than once. Our local bipedal blender in Black Crusade is a World Eaters bezerker, who regularly takes at least a couple of pairs of chain weapons into battle (and usually leaves two or more of them either shattered or embedded in someonething)
  4. Cheat. Be a space wolf and progress from Chainsword to Frost Blade (or create a custom chapter and GM-writ that they have powered chain weapons after the fashion of the Frost Blade).

Edited by Magnus Grendel, 03 June 2014 - 08:36 AM.


#45 Kshatriya

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 10:33 AM

We've been playing it as "All-Out Attack cannot be Dodged or Parried". When in reality, it means that the player loses his Dodge or Parry Reaction. Jesus F Christ this makes me feel like a moron, and this gives Feint and Standard Attack a distinct advantage over All-Out Attack, making for a better tactical dynamic.

Common house rule I've seen: keep the +20 to WS to hit, take -20 to Dodge/Parry (instead of making it inapplicable). Might actually be worth using now; as-writted it's utter crap.



#46 Kshatriya

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 10:35 AM

handle Reactions turn-based, not round-based. 

I have suggested this in my groups but keep being told it doesn't ultimately matter. I disagree but can't think of many circumstances where it actually would (rather than just make more sense). Thoughts?


Edited by Kshatriya, 03 June 2014 - 10:37 AM.


#47 ak-73

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 11:16 AM

1. All-Out Attack is useful against hordes, disposing of individual troops enemies quickly and Killing Strikes. Also, if you have a Force Field, you might get away with it.

2. As mentioned above: If it's round-based and every enemy has acted before you, you can afford to go All-Out. This furthers meta-gaming. Making it turn-based prevents that unless the PC spends Fate for 10 Initiative and feels sure that this will make him go first next round. I'm okay with the latter.

 

Think of a honor duel:

 

Round-based:

Player A attacks.

Player B then knows that he has nothing to fear anymore and goes All-Out instead of Standard.

 

In the 2nd round it might be vice versa or not.

 

Turn-based:

Player A attacks.

Player B does not know who will have initiative in round 2. Therefore he chooses to play it safe and takes a Standard attack.

Or he is willing to bet that he will go first the next round (because, for example, he knows he normally wins initiative because of some bonus).

 

I handle such things turn-based in almost every RPG I play.

 

Alex


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#48 Lord Master Igneus

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 11:21 AM

Maybe if theres a techmarine you could allow him to do something about it?



#49 Fgdsfg

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 01:35 PM

1. All-Out Attack is useful against hordes, disposing of individual troops enemies quickly and Killing Strikes. Also, if you have a Force Field, you might get away with it.

2. As mentioned above: If it's round-based and every enemy has acted before you, you can afford to go All-Out. This furthers meta-gaming. Making it turn-based prevents that unless the PC spends Fate for 10 Initiative and feels sure that this will make him go first next round. I'm okay with the latter.

 

Think of a honor duel:

 

Round-based:

Player A attacks.

Player B then knows that he has nothing to fear anymore and goes All-Out instead of Standard.

 

In the 2nd round it might be vice versa or not.

 

Turn-based:

Player A attacks.

Player B does not know who will have initiative in round 2. Therefore he chooses to play it safe and takes a Standard attack.

Or he is willing to bet that he will go first the next round (because, for example, he knows he normally wins initiative because of some bonus).

 

I handle such things turn-based in almost every RPG I play.

 

Alex

How would he not know who will have Initiative in Round 2? Do you roll new Initiative each round or something?

Now, I'm not running Deathwatch, I'm just running with Rogue Trader and Black Crusade at the moment, but at my tables, everyone knows the exact Turn Order at any one time (bar hidden enemies). What you suggest sounds super-odd to me.

On the other hand, we already always replenished Reactions on a player's Turn, not at the start of an overall Round, so I never had the issues you describe.


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#50 ak-73

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 02:03 PM

Being traditionalists, we roll init per round in every RPG. Just for the sake of lack of predictability.

 

Alex


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#51 Fgdsfg

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 02:48 PM

Being traditionalists, we roll init per round in every RPG. Just for the sake of lack of predictability.

 

Alex

 

Just for the sake of argument though, you should probably point out that that is a house rule.. unless I'm mistaken (again). It makes the change you suggest far more relevant (but it's relevant either way, imo).


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#52 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 06:42 AM

In addition to Killing Strike and horde-murdering, the other advantage to All-Out Attack is that there are several talents which only function with All-Out Attacks (such as Hammer Blow).



#53 SpoonR

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 10:19 AM

Dark Heresy core book mentions the 'primitive-type sword' that turns into 'power sword' when you turn on the juice. Somewhere else mentioned the empty hilt that turns into power sword when turned on.  Then you have chainfists, which I've seen described as basically chainsaw with power field on top.  Given those as examples, seems like it would be reasonable to have a signature chain weapon that can turn on a weak/short duration power field when needed.

 

Or heck, have it be made out of some exotic material, like the teeth of that dragon critter on Vulcan, and say that makes it immune to power weapon destruction


Edited by SpoonR, 29 June 2014 - 10:23 AM.


#54 Calgor Grim

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 06:59 AM

Just to also sidetrack and one up all of them, speak to the Officio Assassinorum or chapter vaults and borrow a C'tan Phase Sword. Nice bit of living metal capable of slicing through any substance without argument, goodbye power field, goodbye force field, hello fragments of metal. :)


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#55 Dr. Quinn

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 08:51 PM

Quick note, what everyone had seemed to miss in here is that yes, Power Weapons are nigh well common for Deathwatch characters, and not excessively uncommon for members of the Imperium.  However, as you are not often fighting other deathwatch members or other members of the Imperium, the question is very valid as to how common they will be for your *enemies*.

 

The Tyranids sure aren't going to be using power fields and sundering your weapon.  One salient cleared.

The Tau, well, Kroot aren't going to, nor are Fire Warriors or really anything short of a master level opponent.  So you must use some caution, but as long as you're not a fool you're ok.

The Chaos forces, it's sure not going to come up against cultists or demons.  Both the high and low end will be fine, the only real sticking point is Chaos Marines themselves, and then it's the same as above- use your eyes, if they have a power sword, use caution, if not, go wild. 

The rest of em, well, Necrons are a problem, Eldar are likely a problem, and Orks worth consideration are a problem.

 

So, ultimately, it's likely fine most of the time.  It's a gross exaggeration to say that he would even encounter an enemy with a power field in every mission, likely only 25% of the time.  Those times, he can either use intelligence (see the weapon, use something different), use tactics (have someone before him burn up the opponent's reactions, so they can't parry), or use luck (it's not a guarantee, after all).  If it breaks on 10% of the missions, with all the backup options available, is it really that big of a deal?

 

The real question, of course, is why he would choose to use that weapon as his signature weapon vs the other options available, as it's mechanically equivalent to a power sword in most cases, worst in the rest of them, and strictly inferior to the better power weapons.  If it's just "because it's cool", then personally, I would say screw it, and say that an Eviscerator is a chain sword with the power field, and model it after the step from claymore to power claymore in terms of damage and pen increase (leaving it at 1d10+8 pen 8, and giving it the power field, unwieldy, and tearing qualities). 

 

Trust me, this is not game breaking at all, and is exactly in line with other options available.  Note that tearing on a 1 die damage weapon is a slightly less than 2 point increase in average damage done (reflected in its stats compared to other options), and flesh render is mechanically a less than 1 point increase in average damage.  If you can't handle that from a fluff standpoint (even though it seems ok to me, I know less about the fluff behind eviscerators than some of you, maybe it's spelled out that they don't have power fields somewhere), then my earlier point stands- if it breaks from time to time, that's also not game breaking.

 

Edit:  Realized I fubar'd the math.  Not by much, though.  Forgot to take into account extra righteous fury.  Base chance is 10%, chance w/ tearing is roughly 20% (19%), chance w/ flesh render is roughly 30% (27%).  However, the extra 10% chance of 5.5 damage from those is a whopping extra .55 damage per attack, so tearing is almost exactly an increase of 2.2 damage, and flesh render is 1.37 more (for a total of 3.6, which is still with the proposed stats in line with other options, and regardless again, not game breaking).


Edited by Dr. Quinn, 15 July 2014 - 09:05 PM.





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