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Chain Weapons vs. Power Field


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#1 [S]ir[B]ardiel

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 07:48 AM

Is there a way for a Chain Weapon to survive an encounter with a Power weapon?

A player of mine would take Signature Wargear for an Eviscerator but I'm afraid in the long run could be a mistake, for the 75% chance to shatter when parried by a Power weapon during any mission.

 

I'm thinking master-craft weapon, or pairing the Eviscerator with a Combat shield (it leaves a free hand)



#2 Errant Knight

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 08:07 AM

Okay, so the weapon in question doesn't make it through every mission.  Pick up the broken pieces and have it repaired between missions, or get issued another one.  The XP has already been spent on Signature Wargear.  Don't make them pay it twice.


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#3 Calgor Grim

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 09:47 AM

The best argument is above, if it breaks they have spent the XP and get a replacement free. This is the trade off and potential risk.

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#4 Kshatriya

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:21 AM

That's just the risk you take. If you see enemies with power swords, shooting them is a better option.



#5 Adeptus-B

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:44 AM

I would probably rule that special construction (like being made entirely from adamantium) could reduce the break chance (say, from 75% to 50%), but it will still have to be replaced from time to time...



#6 [S]ir[B]ardiel

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 12:54 PM

Taking in battle an inadequate weapon which will broke against relevant melee fighters when you could have brought a Power Sword, leaving the marine unarmed for the remaining of the mission?

 

tumblr_me7cotIvmR1rxrxawo1_500.png

 

As a Captain would say "No brother, let Bessy stay home and take this instead"

 

I still fail to see ANY realistic justification besides *chain weapons are AWESOME*.


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#7 Lynata

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 04:28 PM

That probably is the player's motivation here. That being said, in-universe it could be fluffed as a (minor) Chapter relic! Or something that is on its best way of becoming one, anyways.

 

And I like the Errant Knight's suggestion best. "Weapon destroyed" in this sense does not mean that the thing goes poof in his hands, it means it'll get neatly* cut in two halves by a passing power field. It'll obviously need quite a bit of tinkering to get it together again (and a new set of teeth), but nothing a skilled artificer couldn't do.

 

The worst I'd do to such a player was to have him go a mission without the weapon, and get it back in the next, reflecting the time it takes to repair this item. Of course, the Requisition for this weapon would remain spent, and he could not simply create a backup Signature weapon just in case the first one breaks (because then it wouldn't be signature, right?).

Basically, he'd have to do with a bog-standard chainsword for that deployment.

 

 

*: Okay, perhaps not really "neatly" but rather with an ugly sound of machinery being deadlocked and warped, fragments flying everywhere and smoke coming out of the malfunctioning motor. But you know what I mean!


Edited by Lynata, 30 May 2014 - 04:30 PM.


#8 [S]ir[B]ardiel

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 06:45 PM

Yeah I know, I would not let him with XP spent in vain but he would be unarmed in the middle of a Deathwatch mission.

Every mission.

What kind of marine goes in mission with crap that could and would break anytime?

Not an affidable one.

 

Don't care if he will rebuild\re-requisite another one, he would still be everytime unarmed and this is not very Astartes.



#9 Lynata

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 08:01 PM

Oh, I dunno ... in my opinion, 40k is all about "style over substance". If it were otherwise, Space Marines would wear camouflaged armour, always wear helmets, be firmly integrated into the Imperial command hierarchy, use dedicated vehicle drivers, make more use of smart tactics and non-violent solutions over brute force, and have considerably expanded recruitment requirements. And would be way more boring. ;)

 

From this perspective, the player limiting his character to a less than optimal piece of equipment is ... entirely accurate and suitable for the setting!

 

 

Also consider that a Space Marine is never entirely unarmed. Unless he's Abbadon. :D

 

Jokes aside, even if a Marine would lose his primary melee weapon in combat - what do you think the combat knife is for? And if he loses that, he still has the butt of his bolter, his bare hands, and his teeth.

They're Astartes - let them act like it!


Edited by Lynata, 30 May 2014 - 08:02 PM.


#10 ak-73

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 12:40 AM

Why does there have to be a rule? Roleplay it out! You go to grumpy old Harl Greyweaver and explain to him why you broke another master-crafted Chainsword. Go and see if he'll give you a replacement one for your Signature Wargear talent - or not.

 

But be prepared to answer questions such as: "You knew he was wielding a Power Sword, so why did you attack with my prescious Chainsword and not with that Bolt Pistol of yours? Hmm?"

 

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#11 [S]ir[B]ardiel

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 04:28 AM

Yeah I know but I'm not looking for a solution for when it will break - would be marine's business - I'm trying to find a way to let my marine get a chainsword which would be still useful at higher ranks.



#12 Chaplain

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 05:57 AM

Power weapon is a nigh-unique weapon in-universe, at the very least exceedingly rare even in Astartes arsenal from both sides of the Eye of Terror. Do you meet adversaries armed with power weapons like, every mission? Blaming a kill-marine for losing his weapon and forcing him to be armed with power weapon every time he goes on a mission sounds like forcing a SWAT team bring laser-guided anti-tank missiles every time they are called to detain a barricaded suspect to me.


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#13 Kshatriya

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:37 AM

Power weapon is a nigh-unique weapon in-universe, at the very least exceedingly rare even in Astartes arsenal from both sides of the Eye of Terror. 

They're not really that rare, and certainly not "nigh-unique", if it's 20 Req/Respected to take one. The rareness of a lot of items was played up in Dark Heresy, which just isn't accurate or applicable to Space Marines (hell, any Sergeant can have a power weapon if you recall).

 

Sidenote: if an Astartes sees enemies with power weapons, knowing full well their capabilities in-setting, and still goes after them with a chainsword every time, that is an in-setting dumb Astartes, and it strains plausibility.


Edited by Kshatriya, 31 May 2014 - 10:38 AM.


#14 [S]ir[B]ardiel

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 11:39 AM

Power weapon is a nigh-unique weapon in-universe, at the very least exceedingly rare even in Astartes arsenal from both sides of the Eye of Terror. Do you meet adversaries armed with power weapons like, every mission? Blaming a kill-marine for losing his weapon and forcing him to be armed with power weapon every time he goes on a mission sounds like forcing a SWAT team bring laser-guided anti-tank missiles every time they are called to detain a barricaded suspect to me.

Absolutely not.

It's like forcing your SWAT team to wear kevlar jackets for they are ALWAYS facing armed enemies.

Also, as Kshatriya said, Power weapons are almost standard issue for Astartes veterans

 

 

Power weapon is a nigh-unique weapon in-universe, at the very least exceedingly rare even in Astartes arsenal from both sides of the Eye of Terror. 

They're not really that rare, and certainly not "nigh-unique", if it's 20 Req/Respected to take one. The rareness of a lot of items was played up in Dark Heresy, which just isn't accurate or applicable to Space Marines (hell, any Sergeant can have a power weapon if you recall).

 

Sidenote: if an Astartes sees enemies with power weapons, knowing full well their capabilities in-setting, and still goes after them with a chainsword every time, that is an in-setting dumb Astartes, and it strains plausibility.

 

Yeah but what if the power-weapons armed enemies USE said weapon to charge our proud marines?

Would be like SWAT against unarmed civilians.



#15 Kshatriya

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 11:55 AM

I think the big issue discussed was how Power Field weapons can sunder a weapon when the power weapon is used to parry. The same rule (for whatever reason) does not apply when a power weapon is parried by a non-power weapon, despite the Power Field being the same.



#16 Chaplain

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 01:13 PM

Imperium has less Astartes than planets under its dominion, and Deathwatch are the chosen one from Astartes. Of course in Deathwatch you will have access to virtually anything Imperium has - including power weapons. But that doesn't mean they are "not that rare" in a galaxy where some have to go out agains horrors beseting Imperium with pikes and bows, many consider some kind of Kalashnikov-pattern stub rifle a good choice, and advanced energy-based weapons like lasguns cost more than guardsman's life many times over.

 

All I want to say is those weapons should be treated like that - irreplacible relics made with technologies long lost, and considering possibility of losing them in battle they are handed either when it is confirmed that another such weapon is in target's possession or to the most venerated warriors whose death would be a hard blow by itself.


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#17 Kshatriya

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 02:03 PM

Stuff is definitely rare for PDF forces. Stuff is definitely rare for the IG that is not currently in an active battle zone (and some of those normal archers are deadlier with bows than some formations are with lasguns, remember).

 

But the rarity of stuff for the average grunt or Rank 1 DH schmuck acolyte really isn't relevant when considering the upper-echelons of the Imperium, namely (not-broke) Rogue Trader dynasties, Astartes, and Inquisitors/their direct retinue. My impression is that Forge Worlds make power weapons all the time - mostly for either the upper-tier of the Imperial war machine (including Astartes) or wealth private people who can afford to buy them (Rogue Traders and likely inquisitors along with sector nobles, IG generals, etc).


Edited by Kshatriya, 31 May 2014 - 02:05 PM.


#18 Chaplain

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 02:36 PM

Well, I guess it comes to personal preferences then. I tend to describe Imperium in a bit more desperate, degraded state when it comes to technology in my games.


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#19 Kshatriya

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 03:07 PM

Well, life is desperate and awesome weapons are unattainable, for most people. But the premise of all of these games, particularly RT and DW, is you're not most people.

 

I mean look at the mechanics. Power swords are Very Rare in Rogue Trader, which is a penalty to your Profit Factor test to find and acquire one. But if you want just one (as opposed to a crate full, and I'll note that finding and buying a crate full of power swords to outfit your personal Houseguard is indeed an option), you get a huge bonus on your roll to find one, that completely negates the penalty. That leads me to believe that they might the hard to find, but not that hard, at least for rich, connected people (which RT characters are, even if they have low PF, they have a starship. Leaving aside the fact that every PC RT can take a power sword and plasma pistol at chargen, as part of their starting equipment. Because you're not just some guy, you're a ****ing Rogue Trader, heir to a mercantile writ signed by the High Lords of Terra themselves.

 

Or, if you're an Astarte sergeant, you basically are given one as a mark of office, to wield into battle as you lead your squad. Your squad who, while they may have chainswords, are also armed with power armor and ranged weapons that most people only hear about in stories and never see in real life. A given Brother's supply chain is literally something they don't worry about except in the field when low on ammo; the rest of the time, it's a pure given that they will be supplied with the gear they need for the mission. Meaning each Astarte chapter probably has at least 100 power swords - 1 for each Sergeant, and probably more for special formations, or surplus. That's 100 allegedly "nigh-unique" items per Chapter, and completely leaving aside rarer stuff like the great relics of the Chapter leadership, the power- and chainfists for Terminators, the crozius for the Chaplains, etc etc. For an Astarte, a power sword basically requires you to be one rank up from a raw nugget in the Deathwatch, and Tacmarines can start with one given a Deed.

 

In Dark Heresy, the price of a power sword is so high that no acolyte will ever be able to wield a power sword unless they abuse the (terrible) economics of that game, or are granted one for use by their master, or loot one from a dead foe who happened to have one (which creates its own issues of believability, of course - special agents getting **** for logistical support is a hard pill to fathom). And at the same time, bolts are 16 thrones for 1 bolt, which means if you use a bolter, you use it for emergencies and cherish every shot (unless you're a Battle Sister who gets supplied for free, of course).

 

So yes, these items are regarded as rare and priceless and unique by 99.9% of the human population of the Imperium, but Inquisitors (who aren't exactly following the DH economic rules anymore), Astartes, and Rogue Traders are part of that .01%, and while they cherish and treasure power swords and the like, they're not exactly hurting for them or unable to find them if they want one.

 

Just my 2 gelt.


Edited by Kshatriya, 31 May 2014 - 03:15 PM.

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#20 [S]ir[B]ardiel

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 03:18 PM

Yeah yeah but I wouldn't have had opened this topic on Deathwatch RPG section if I wasn't talkin about Astartes stuff.
 
Well after accurate analisies (derps) I came to the conclusion that there aren't so many enemies with power weapons: chaos mostly got chain\force weapons, nyds got natural weapons, tau don't talk about melee or they get bruised by spelling that word.
eldars and orks will be the real pain, otherwise the Chain badassery is safe :v
 
:3


Edited by [S]ir[B]ardiel, 31 May 2014 - 03:18 PM.





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