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A few ship related questions.


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#41 BaronIveagh

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 10:28 PM

 

1.) A "Standard" (Canon) IG Infantry company is approx 300 men (OW: No surrender pg.30). This consists of six Platoons each consisting of 3 Infantry Squads, 2 Heavy or Specialist squads and 1 Command squad (Approx. 50 men total). Pretty much right out the Codex: Astra Militarum there! So yes, there is a Canon number.

 

100-150 men and gear.  Ciaphas Cain series, Gaunts Ghosts Series, Penal Legion series, pretty much any of them that use real world numbers for troops.  IIRC Epic and Planet Strike also used this range.

 

 

2.) A SM Strike cruiser is much smaller than you suggest! It is a light cruiser (Similar to the Lathe class cruiser in ITS). It supports a single company of Astartes with all their vehicles. In BFG It could support 2 squadrons of small craft and mounted a Bombardment cannon in a Dorsal mount. In Rogue trader this would translate to a Jovian pattern Escort bay and a Bombardment cannon dorsal mount as well as a Storm drop pod bay (Which would theoretically allow the entire company to be deployed in a single salvo!). In current Background, The squadrons held on board the launch bay would probably include a Thunderhawk squadron, A Thunderhawk Transport squadron and an Aeronautica Squavdron made up      of a mix of Storm Ravens and Storm Talons. (I think Baronlveigh was actually thinking of the Battlebarge.) I actually came up with a pretty close approximation of a Strike cruiser using the Lathe class as a template!

 

 

On the Olympia class light cruiser (aka the SM Strike Cruiser)

 

LB strength translates 1 for 1 between BFG and RT, so that's Str 2 or a Jovian pattern Landing Bay. The bombardment cannon is actually called the 'prow bombardment cannon' in BFG for a reason.  In fluff it's occasionally swapped for a lance.  Certain Strike cruisers have also fit launch bays, torps, and the bombardment cannon simultaneously, (See Ultramarines novels) though this variant may be unique to the Ultramarines (who, despite their normally conservative view, get almost as heretical as the Dark Angels with their ships) and Imperial Fists.  SCs can also swap their LBs for str 6 torps.

 

Armor translates out to something like 25 all around at minimum, with speed around 7.  They would automatically get a teleportarium and drop pod bay.  It also supports chapter serfs, and contains training facilities, etc.



#42 Annaamarth

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 11:54 PM

I'm not sure about an automatic teleportarium- I see no reason that every strike cruiser would be able to support Terminator operations. That's a Grey Knight thing- they get the super-whamadyne cruisers with all the fixin's, because everything teleports.

 

What's your source on the Olympia?


RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#43 Errant Knight

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:19 AM

I don't think strike cruisers should automatically have a teleportaium either.  Battle Barges probably do, but strike cruisers do not always carry terminators.  In fact, few probably do (some chapters have no terminator armor), and some of those may be using the portable versions with a very limited range.

 

In the most recent (I think it's fan-created) version of BFG strike cruisers are capable of being modified to a great extent.  In fact, there's even a new class, the Vanguard.  Both classes have a reduced squadron capacity (1 str), which fits in well with the escort landing bay concept.

 

The old class can exchange its prow launch bay for torpedoes (str 3) and/or its broadside batteries for launch bays.

 

The Vanguard-class has no bombardment cannon at all, but gains +1 str to each broadside, prow torpedo tubes (str 4), and an increased turret rating (3).

 

And, armor 25 seems excessive to me.  I'd go 24, and that's with modified components already in place with no further upgrades available.  And still strike cruisers are quite the war vessel, above and beyond Imperial Navy light cruisers, which they are supposed to be slightly smaller than.



#44 Radwraith

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:17 AM

@Knighterrant: Not as an Ego thing, but I'm Curious how old school you are? (Not intended as an insult, just a question. :) ) I remember Car wars very well! I remember playing it when the entire set came in a plastic baggie and the rulebook was actually a pamphlet! I also remember most of us players at one point or another trying to recreate the "Knight Rider" car (Kitt.). What I was thinking of was going to be considerably simpler than that though! The Vehicles in Car wars were electrically powered armored combat vehicles that, in many cases would have been more advanced than many of the tanks in the Imperium!

 

@Baronlveagh: 3 Platoons or 6 platoons to a company? I suppose either is possible! I was just noting the FFG source that I got the number from and trying to stick with that. I agree that your numbers are closer to today's military.

 

Where did you guys find a "most recent" version of BFG? I'd love to see it! I've actually tried to lobby GW to re-release or update BFG since it was one of my favorite games and actually the game that got me into the 40k system!

 

As to the Strike cruiser: Bear in mind that I'm only going by what is in BFG: Armageddon sourcebook but:

 

A Hull value of somewhere between 22-24 seems appropriate (6+ armor in bfg).

 

The bombardment cannon in the Mini is actually mounted directly above the launch bay (I have one.) and it's arc is listed as front/left/right (BFG) so I guess in RT it could be either prow or Dorsal. Never seen a reference to it being swapped for a lance though. The IN doesn't like that there's one on the Nova frigate so I imagine they'd be REALLY unhappy with a cruiser mounting one!

 

The Port and starboard batteries are listed as STR 4 (BFG) with a 30cm rng. This would correlate well with a single Rysa pattern plasma battery on either side (Non-broadside)

 

I don't believe that a Strike cruiser would automatically mount a teleportarium (Though a Battlebarge probably would!). They would obviously mount a Storm drop pod bay which would theoretically allow them to launch the entire company in a single volley! The Only reason I went with the Jovian escort bay is that it fit the description of what the model depicts and it can (legally) be mounted on a light cruiser.

 

As a warship, The Strike cruiser seems comparable to a dauntless but is slightly handicapped by the short rng of the bombardment cannon in space combat. As a rapid response assault ship (Which is what it's designed for!) it is unparalleled!

 

In My Game I have stolen from the fluff the idea that the bombardment cannon is variable yield and hyper-accurate in ground combat. Therefore; (Using the DW orbital support fire guidlines) It has the accuracy of a torpedo, cannot be intercepted and can vary it's hitting power from that of a torpedo to that of a lance! It's orbital Bombardment capability in large-scale combat is documented in BFK pg. 34

 

IMHO the Strike cruiser deserves a great deal of the credit for the Astartes legendary ability to engage whole armies! Since Astartes battle companies are almost always supported from orbiting strike cruisers (At least!), they always maintain the ability to destroy whole armies from orbit as they attempt to relieve a target the Space marines are attacking! In close quarters combat where the Astartes excel the battle would look something like the movie 300! But their ability to deny the enemy the ability to converge and overwhelm them means that there is no overwhelming them!


Edited by Radwraith, 06 June 2014 - 11:21 AM.


#45 Tenebrae

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:49 AM

Where did you guys find a "most recent" version of BFG? I'd love to see it! I've actually tried to lobby GW to re-release or update BFG since it was one of my favorite games and actually the game that got me into the 40k system!


https://drive.google...drive_web&hl=en

#46 Errant Knight

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:51 AM

Heh.  How old am I?  I don't remember exactly when Cars Wars became publicly available, but I remember an old gaming buddy back then, John Ford (he went by Mike back then) got the playtest from Steve in the mid-70's when I was still in college.

 

I'm not offended at all.  Please don't be offended in return when I say that we never attempted to recreate the Knight Rider vehicle in Car Wars.  I can remember that I graduated college before it came out.  It would not have held my interest.

 

I think I got the google drive location for the new BFG set here on these forums, but I don't really remember.  Maybe someone here has more information.

 

When you say "hull value" of the strike cruiser, I'm assuming you really meant Armor Value and not Hull Integrity.  It should have a lot more Hull Integrity than 22-24, probably something between 50-60.

 

The thing here is, BFG standardizes things to make for an equitable points-buy wargame.  There should be no 2 strike cruisers alike, though.  Put whatever macrobatteries in it you want, or broadsides, or lances.  Each would be different.  The IN might have a problem with space marines mounting lances but their protest doesn't seem to extend to rogue traders.  The same concept goes with miniatures.  Those were designed to be mass produced.  I wouldn't want to know how much they'd charge me for a custom model.

 

And yes, I agree that the strike cruiser deserves a large part of the credit for the reputation of the space marines.  It's fast, it's tough, and if every company of 100 troops out there had their own dedicated orbital bombardment platform, they'd be a lot more powerful, too.

 

Edit:  Tenebrae posted the BFG info here before I posted.  Now you have it.


Edited by Errant Knight, 06 June 2014 - 11:52 AM.


#47 Marwynn

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 12:49 PM

BFG:R is a fan-made compilation, isn't it? The last official PDFs were on GW's site, but they've remodelled and the files are gone.

 

 


The Gathering Strom  - A Chronicle of Intrigue, Space Battles, Planetary Invasions, and Dinner Parties

The Blessed Enterprise - Flagship of the Strom Dynasty / Reception Hall

Into the Strom - Venture into the secrets of the Strom Dynasty! 


#48 Radwraith

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 01:06 PM

Thanks for that Tenebrae!

 

@ Knighterrant: Cool! I'm slightly younger than you but not much! I was Just getting into Jr. High when AD&D first came out in 76' Rare to find someone who's been doing this as long as me anymore! I salute my fellow Grognards!  :)



#49 Errant Knight

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 01:26 PM

Salute to you, too, fellow Grognard.

 

D&D was born of Chainmail 2nd Ed.  I still have my 2 page ruleset that was eventually put into that Chainmail edition, from which D&D was created.  In fact, it was printed in my hometown by Guidon Games.  I remember the house on Iowa St. that was our wargames/RPG HQ, the attic we played in, and the printing press that put those first issues out.  It was an old converted hand-crank job with an electric motor.  I feel privileged to have been there.

 

And yes, it's nice to run into the old crowd and see that some of us still participate in the hobby.  Most of us dropped by the wayside due to the demands of family and career.  Some of us still game and our wives love us anyway.


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#50 BaronIveagh

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 05:07 PM

This is the last 'official' BFG pdf, which was FAQ 2010, combining the material from BFGM and tweaking the core rules.  BFGR has been hijacked and rewritten too many times by different groups and includes a lot of ships that were not canon.

 

http://www.darkreign... FAQ 2010_0.pdf

 

 

SCs use a teleport attack to Hit and Run in BFG, so, logically, teleportarium.


Edited by BaronIveagh, 06 June 2014 - 05:15 PM.


#51 Annaamarth

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:39 AM

Page 12 of the linked document states:

 

Teleport attacks can be conducted by capital ships
that are on Lock-On or Reload Ordnance special 
orders. All other special orders preclude the use of 
teleport attacks. [Bold is mine]
 
This is a generic, nonspecific statement that seems to suggest that every vessel that is not of "escort" class is capable of performing hit and run attacks, and that therefore every Imperial, Astartes, AdMech, Rogue Trader, Chaos, Eldar, Ork, &c vessel of light cruiser size or larger has a teleportarium- or the racial equivalent.  In RT this has been flat contradicted, and is not the case.
 
I find no direct reference to teleportaria in the Space Marines section except for one block that pertains specifically to the Fortress-Monastery.  Sure, every Fortress-Monastery has a teleportarium, right there along with every battlebarge and some Strike Cruisers.
 
Please include the quote that supports your argument, Baron.

RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#52 Tenebrae

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 03:38 AM

SCs use a teleport attack to Hit and Run in BFG, so, logically, teleportarium.

Er... Teleport Attack is just the BFG term for RT's Hit and Run attack.

#53 Annaamarth

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 07:53 AM

No, it uses the phrase "hit and run attack." My quote was all under the Hit and Run subsection.


RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#54 BaronIveagh

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 10:58 AM

 

Please include the quote that supports your argument, Baron.

 

 

Battlefleet Gothic, Blue Book, Page 35, 'Teleport Attacks':

 

"Ships which are close to their enemies may attempt to initiate a small-scale boarding action with their Teleporters. However, active shields interfere with the teleport beams, so such attacks can only be made against an enemy who's shields have been knocked down."

 

This is almost word for word how a teleportarium works.  As far as RT not having every capital ship having a teleportaium or it' equivilant, it's due to the fact that it's of much greater utility to the players than it is in other games.  Of the named SM strike cruisers in fluff that we get much detail on, they almost universally have teleportariums.  Them being near universal may be particular to SM chapters who specialize in ship to ship actions.  The only ship to get VERY specific is Nicor, which has an array of teleportariums as to allow mass teleportation, but that's a space marine grand cruiser.



#55 Radwraith

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:40 PM

I guess, to me this falls under the "what's your flavor of the game?" type question. You want all your Strike cruisers to carry a Teleportarium? Put em in there! You don't, don't! The only things I would say are "pre-wired" into the vessel are a launch bay and a storm drop pod bay. Anything else is open for interpretation! Perhaps all strike cruisers carried a teleportarium during the Pre-Heresy era. Perhaps since then, some have either been refitted due to malfunction or some other more pressing purpose. I could repost the exact text of the boarding attack rules but suffice to say the Baron is correct! However, In a more Granular game like RT, One could also interpret this as just a catch-all for small scale boarding attacks that do not involve either assault shuttles or boarding torpedoes!

 

Using the straight BFG rules EVERY ship is assumed to have a teleportarium! This is obviously no longer true in RT or even in GW's background. Remember that at the time BFG was written, All Terminators could carry short range teleporters that essentially turned them into jump troops!  This also is no longer allowed so a little retconning may be in order now! It's up to you! Just sayinn... 


Edited by Radwraith, 07 June 2014 - 12:41 PM.

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#56 Annaamarth

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 02:25 PM

I'm with Radwraith on this.  The fluff has been changed over the past four years, a great deal in some cases, and I feel like in order for every Astartes vessel to have a teleportarium (to say nothing of every vessel light cruiser and above), you'd have to houserule the teleportarium as "not archeotech anymore," and I don't feel like doing that.

 

But hey, your game, your rules :)


RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#57 Errant Knight

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 04:39 PM

In fact, a launch bay isn't even completely necessary.  A strike cruiser is 50-60 spaces large.  That means it can carry 10-12 auxiliary craft (i.e. Thunderhawks).  10-12 T-hawks is more than what's needed to deploy a company, and they can double as cargo lighters to resupply the ship.



#58 Alasseo

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 05:02 PM

Hell, by RAW, you could deploy an entire Astartes company (as infantry, at least) in 4 Thunderhawks, including an attached Dreadnaught, and Librariam, Chaplain and Techmarine staff. For that matter, if they chose to use the Thunderhawk Transporter variant instead, they can drop in 2 RH1N0 chassis vehicles or 1 Land Raider per bird.
I did the working out based on the size of a squadron of Thunderhawks (5) a while back, and it turns out that, if they had them aboard, and chose to go all-out, with no Thunderhawks flying as escort/cover rather than troop-carrying, a Strike Cruiser had the capacity to land roughly 5 companies of astartes per hour. Without using drop pods (with drop pods, it comes to 7 companies in the first hour, and then they need to recover the pods).

There is no right, and no wrong, but having the bigger stick makes it so...


#59 BaronIveagh

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 06:58 PM

I'm with Radwraith on this.  The fluff has been changed over the past four years, a great deal in some cases, and I feel like in order for every Astartes vessel to have a teleportarium (to say nothing of every vessel light cruiser and above), you'd have to houserule the teleportarium as "not archeotech anymore," and I don't feel like doing that.

 

But hey, your game, your rules :)

 

Minor points:

 

1) IA X was more recent and still has the teleportariums and even the 'super' teleportariums on Nicor.  HH books from IA also mention them in passing.

 

2) BFG actually takes place in the past, or in sectors where more of the better toys are used, as far as FFG's games go.

.  (The Gothic War having taken place 700 years earlier, the third War for Armageddon takes place in Segmentum Solar, where we keep all the best toys, and the Badab War has the Inq and SM chapters breaking out super duper archeotech that hasn't been seen since the Horus Heresy, and obscure strike cruiser variants with both prow launch bays and prow torpedo tubes, which I might add, I hope puts the 'dorsal' 'prow bombardment cannon' to rest).

 

Most likely in areas with more ship to ship combat (remember that BFC has had very, very few fleet actions since the Crusade that founded it) they're more 'standard' than they are here.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, again, ships are supposedly rare in Calyxis, but it abuts the Scarus Sector (warp route from Sepherus Secondus connects to Tomish, being spinward of Calyxis), which is home to one of the Bastion Fleets, meaning that right next door, relatively speaking, is one of the largest ship building operations in the IoM, as well as the massive reserve fleets, due to the fact that from Sepherus Secondus it's NOT THAT FAR TO THE EYE OF TERROR, a fact that has been referenced in RT books.


Edited by BaronIveagh, 07 June 2014 - 07:18 PM.


#60 Radwraith

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:18 PM

As I said; Everyone is free to interpret as they wish. I don't think there's a wrong answer!

 

Prow or dorsal, What's the difference? On a Light cruiser the firing arcs remain the same!






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