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#1 Lady Kataline Jianwei

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 03:00 PM

Question One. I noticed that  Universe has a speed rating of 2. Excess Void Armor has a speed penalty of 2. Universe with Excess Void Armor now has a speed rating of 0. So at that point its a space station right?  Is this just a magical oversight of the game and something a seasoned ship builder would just never do? Not that I did that. No, I never would put Excess Void Armor on a transport ship... Basically, Universe and Excess Void armor can't be a thing, correct?

 

Question B: Why is the Sunsear Laser Battery (and I assume its larger broadside version) considered the best weapon in the game? Below are Hecutors and Sunsears for comparision as I mounted 2 Hecutors and 4 broadsides with a total cost of 64/26/12 (Power/Space/SP). Similar armament with Sunsears would be 48/32/6. Is it a matter of mount-ability? Is that a word? As the Sunsear Las Battery can go on anything.

 

Macrocannons, Hecutor Plasma Battery, LC+: Str 3, 1d10+2, Crit 4 Range 11, 8/3/2, if a 1 or 2 is rolled on Crit chart, 2 components are affected.

Macrocannons, Hecutor Plasma Broadside, BC+: Str 5, 1d10+2, Crit 4 Range 11, 12/5/2, if a 1 or 2 is rolled on Crit chart, 2 components are affected.

 

Macrocannons, Sunsear Las-broadside, LC+: Str 6 1d10+2, Crit 4, Range 9, 9/6/1

Macrocannons, Sunsear Laser Battery: Str 4, 1d10+2, Crit 4, Range 9, 6/4/1 

 

Lastly, is 10 Storm Drop pods on a Universe too many drop pods? Or not enough? Or is it a shining moment of you know you're playing RT when?


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#2 Tenebrae

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 03:29 PM

Question One. I noticed that  Universe has a speed rating of 2. Excess Void Armor has a speed penalty of 2. Universe with Excess Void Armor now has a speed rating of 0. So at that point its a space station right?  Is this just a magical oversight of the game and something a seasoned ship builder would just never do? Not that I did that. No, I never would put Excess Void Armor on a transport ship... Basically, Universe and Excess Void armor can't be a thing, correct?

Basically, yeah.
Looks like a perfectly sensible analysis.

Question B: Why is the Sunsear Laser Battery (and I assume its larger broadside version) considered the best weapon in the game? Below are Hecutors and Sunsears for comparision as I mounted 2 Hecutors and 4 broadsides with a total cost of 64/26/12 (Power/Space/SP). Similar armament with Sunsears would be 48/32/6. Is it a matter of mount-ability? Is that a word? As the Sunsear Las Battery can go on anything.

OK, first: do you realise why macrocannons are silly good in RAW?
Right, that's why I'll only consider macrocannons.

Now, as I recall (no books with me atm) the Hecutors cost 2 SP each, base. Combined with lower cost in power and mount-ability (word stolen!), it's a really nice weapon.

Better yes, the Sunsears have a Strength of 4 for the base version, as (IIRC) one of only 2 weapon with that combination of characteristics (cost: 1 SP, Strength 4) for something that can be mounted in a dorsal mount for a frigatte. The other one being the Mezoa macrocannon, with about half the range of the Sunsear.
When I first saw it, and compared with the Ryza Plasma battery, I thought the price of the Sunsear was a type, and that it was supposed to be 2 SP instead.

Lastly, is 10 Storm Drop pods on a Universe too many drop pods? Or not enough? Or is it a shining moment of you know you're playing RT when?

Too many - it's a shite component ;) :P
Nah, just because I don't personally like drop pods doesn't mean they're bad - if you like 'em, go for 'em!
As for the playing RT-thread, I think it would still require an actual scene, but that should be doable.

#3 Sebastian Yorke

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 03:40 PM

Storm troopers in power armor thrown from orbit on a Zaythian city-fortress could take out its bridge while you send the rest of the invasion troopers by landers and shark boats.

 

Drop pods are excellent if you want to take an objective militarily ignoring ground defenses and anti-air batteries (I understand it travels faster than a missile at the ground's direction).

 

[Spoiler alert] Imagine how useful they would've been on that playthrough of Lure of the Expanse, when the pcs reach Quppa Psi 12.


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#4 Erathia

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 04:35 PM

Storm troopers in power armor thrown from orbit on a Zaythian city-fortress could take out its bridge while you send the rest of the invasion troopers by landers and shark boats.

 

Drop pods are excellent if you want to take an objective militarily ignoring ground defenses and anti-air batteries (I understand it travels faster than a missile at the ground's direction).

 

They do, but they don't ignore ground defenses. Even a little turbulence could wreck their day because if the angle of landing is wrong everyone in the pod would get killed. Also the City-Fortresses have constant void shields that they use to defend against their neighbours who turn up the volume too loud with their all-night shelling.


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#5 Lady Kataline Jianwei

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 05:46 PM

OK, first: do you realise why macrocannons are silly good in RAW?

Right, that's why I'll only consider macrocannons.

Now, as I recall (no books with me atm) the Hecutors cost 2 SP each, base. Combined with lower cost in power and mount-ability (word stolen!), it's a really nice weapon.

Better yes, the Sunsears have a Strength of 4 for the base version, as (IIRC) one of only 2 weapon with that combination of characteristics (cost: 1 SP, Strength 4) for something that can be mounted in a dorsal mount for a frigatte. The other one being the Mezoa macrocannon, with about half the range of the Sunsear.
When I first saw it, and compared with the Ryza Plasma battery, I thought the price of the Sunsear was a type, and that it was supposed to be 2 SP instead.

 

  Lastly, is 10 Storm Drop pods on a Universe too many drop pods? Or not enough? Or is it a shining moment of you know you're playing RT when?

Too many - it's a shite component ;) :P
Nah, just because I don't personally like drop pods doesn't mean they're bad - if you like 'em, go for 'em!
As for the playing RT-thread, I think it would still require an actual scene, but that should be doable.

 

 

 

Storm troopers in power armor thrown from orbit on a Zaythian city-fortress could take out its bridge while you send the rest of the invasion troopers by landers and shark boats.

 

Drop pods are excellent if you want to take an objective militarily ignoring ground defenses and anti-air batteries (I understand it travels faster than a missile at the ground's direction).

 

[Spoiler alert] Imagine how useful they would've been on that playthrough of Lure of the Expanse, when the pcs reach Quppa Psi 12.

 

I've seen the Mathhammer thread and yes Macros are silly good what with a possible +2 damage added to them, one from the Munitorium and one from upgrading it and picking damage. Our Arch Militant captained our Sword Frigate and outfitted her with a pair of Sunsears. Scored 3 kills in her career with us, and assisted in many many more.

 

As to the drop pods... Steel Rehn baby! Our Universe is our troop carrier and we wanted a way to get a lot of troops down to the ground quickly. 10 is what we had room for after we had stuffed the ship full of everything else useful we could think off. I haven't actually sat down to build it but I think if you did nothing but essentials, a barracks and tons of drop pods you can get somewhere in the neighborhood of 30+ pods. Of course then the ship is only a troop carrier and not a versatile support ship with space piers, repair facilities, black jack, and hookers.

 

 

EDIT: Oh God Emperor what have I done? The top quote is from Tenebrae and the second quote is from Sebastian Yorke.


Edited by Lady Kataline Jianwei, 29 May 2014 - 05:52 PM.

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#6 Magellan

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 05:46 PM

If I remember correctly, a drop pod has the speed to make it from low orbit to the ground in one round of movement.


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#7 Lady Kataline Jianwei

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 06:49 PM

If I remember correctly, a drop pod has the speed to make it from low orbit to the ground in one round of movement.

Which is why we got them! :)

 

Also here is a question. Could the drop pods make it through a void shield? The void shield doesn't stop things like small craft or torpedoes as it is stated they are travelling too slow to trigger the shield. However here is where things will get fuzzy. So a round of space combat is 30 minutes. A VU is set distance of 10,000km. Weapons systems have set ranges that they can fire to. Though half way through this I think I thought of something that might answer itself. Can a torpedo go double its range in 1 turn like say a Sunsear macro?

 

Because if the torpedo can't then everything works out fine actually. The Sunsear has a range of 9, and can fire out to 18. That's 36 VU in 1 hour or a speed of 6000 kph. The torpedo can only go 10 and can't double its range in 1 turn as far as I know. So let's assume that. That's 20 VU in an hour or a speed of 3333 kph. So really anything that travels in and around 20 VU in 2 rounds ought to concievably penetrate void shields. Surely drop pods, which have to be deployed 1 VU away giving them a speed of 333 kph, can get through void shields.

 

Again something has struck me midway through writing this. I might have broken space combat assuming the above speeds are correct. I counted no less than 13 weapons that would come in at speeds under 3333 kph. The nastiest of which does d10+6 damage. If we use the above logic, this weapon should be unimpeded by shields. (Dragon's breath lance from LotE 143). Basically any range 5 weapon won't go faster then a torpedo and thus logically should be too slow for the void shields to stop.

 

What has science done?!

 

Addenum: Ship weapons have variable power settings on them. How else can you push them to shoot twice their range? Arguably, if you can overcharge the weapons wouldn't you also be able lower their power so they aren't throwing their projectiles as hard/fast? If so, then just lower all their power settings down to be equivalent to range 5 or less and bam! Shields are useless!


Edited by Lady Kataline Jianwei, 30 May 2014 - 12:47 PM.

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#8 htsmithium

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 07:05 PM

Well as far as I know lances travel at the speed of light, the range is just how far they go before losing too much power due to dispersion of the beam to do real damage, likewise macrocannon range is a mix of spent energy ( especially with plasma based weapons), lose of accuracy, and initial travel speed.

 

I'm also pretty sure that in the book a VU is much farther than 10Km, I think I remember something about the distance to the moon is roughly 1 vu...thou I could be wrong as I don't have a book handy.

 

Lastly I always thought a massive drop pod compliment would be cool, expensive but cool.


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#9 Erathia

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 11:21 PM

Addenum: Ship weapons have variable power settings on them. How else can you push them to shoot twice their range? Arguably, if you can overcharge the weapons wouldn't you also be able lower their power so they aren't throwing their projectiles as hard/fast? If so, then just lower all their power settings down to be equivalent to range 5 or less and bam! Shields are useless!

 

 

I don't know if you're pushing them to shoot at twice their range, so much as beyond twice their range it's impossible to reliably target enough of your firepower to make a difference. Also there's a specific weapon, the Lathe Grav-Culverin Broadside that does allow you to increase range at the cost of reduced damage, implying that other guns don't have this capability.

 

The Imperium doesn't really have that fine control over its weapons after all. They manually load in shells for Throne's sake. 


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#10 Annaamarth

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 01:44 AM

I would assume that drop pods and assault boats would interact with void shields similarly, but that's just me.

 

The following assumes that Mathhammer is not in play.  The Sunsear is considered the go-to macrocannon because it has a standard damage profile, doesn't take an excess of space, has outstanding range, and has a low-ish SP cost.  It is considered superior to the Broadside version, because the extra hits from the Broadside are unlikely to happen- better to save the power/space and devote it towards useful secondaries.

 

Even when Mathhammer is in play, the Sunsear makes a good component matched with lances with good range and on a fast/manoeuvrable ship.  So long as you control the range, the Sunsear can knock down the voids and the Lance can wreck havoc.

 

Alternatively, in Mathhammer, I like pairing Bombardment Cannon with the high-damage, close-range lances (Mezoa pattern?).  They have identical range profiles, so that weapons fit is outstanding for close-range brawling- again, good if you can control the range.


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#11 Tenebrae

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 02:32 AM

A VU is suggested to be 10 thousand km (10 000 km), but that's not terribly relevant, as they would presumably be launched from just outside the atmosphere.

Only really their speed down the atmosphere would be relevant with regards to ground-to-orbit defences I'd say.



#12 Kasatka

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 02:52 AM

As to the comment about Excess Void armour on a Universe giving 0 speed, yes but only 0 BASE speed. You can still do maneuvers to boost that speed. It just means that your ship is so incredibly bulky that it is barely moving and to move faster than 1 or 2 VU a turn is going to run the chance of burning out the engines. Escorts would be an absolute must for this setup lest it get caught by a wolf pack and torn to shreds.

 

Ah, to shreds you say!


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#13 Errant Knight

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 07:23 AM

Cruisers are better invasion platforms than the Universe.  They can hold an invasion bridge and a bombardment cannon.

 

Drop Pods, besides being useful for a fast insertion commando raid, are best used to secure a landing zone for the subsequent drop ships.  After all, air fields useful for landing ships are usually going to be well defended with AAA units, and drop pods are designed to make it through the AAA.  Thus, you probably don't need more than a single drop pod launching bay.

 

Drop pod bays are awfully large for what you get.  The space they take up to deploy a mere 200 troops could have been used to hold enough Devourers (which need to be statted out somewhere) to land an entire regiment (not an Imperial Guard Regiment which is more like a division, but a normal regiment of 3 battlions plus supporting units).

 

The Sunsear has been addressed.  I'd add that smaller ships often have a hard time finding the needed power for Hecutors.  Some have a hard time finding the power for Sunsears.  I have Vagabonds kitted out with Mars Macrocannon so they can carry more Achievement Point bonus components.

 

Using fast burn torpedoes in an archeotech tube will net you about 17 VUs in the first round (going from memory here), so I'd think that Drop Pods ignore shields, too.  I'm guessing that Deathclaws do when used in their anti-ship role, but I've never used any against my players (though that does give me some evil thoughts).



#14 Lady Kataline Jianwei

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 12:47 PM

A VU is suggested to be 10 thousand km (10 000 km), but that's not terribly relevant, as they would presumably be launched from just outside the atmosphere.

Only really their speed down the atmosphere would be relevant with regards to ground-to-orbit defences I'd say.

 

Whoops. I'll go back and fix that. I did do the calculations with that figure but have no idea why I wrote 10km.


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#15 Tenebrae

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 01:38 PM

 

A VU is suggested to be 10 thousand km (10 000 km), but that's not terribly relevant, as they would presumably be launched from just outside the atmosphere.

Only really their speed down the atmosphere would be relevant with regards to ground-to-orbit defences I'd say.

 

Whoops. I'll go back and fix that. I did do the calculations with that figure but have no idea why I wrote 10km.

 

No worries.

As mentioned, it's still irrelevant, btw. ;)



#16 Sebastian Yorke

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 03:44 PM

http://community.fan...ip/?hl=devourer
 

DevourerDropship.jpg

 

Devourer dropship
Tactical Speed    10m/5 AUs
Cruise Speed    700kph/2VUs
Man.    -20
Structure 80
(Armor)
Size    15x an Arvus Lighter
Front    40
Side    35
Rear    30
Crew    Pilot, Co-Pilot, 6 Tech-Priests, 1 Enginseer, 2 Gunners
Carrying Capacity    500 humans + 50 Leman Rus Tanks/Chimeras (or 1000 humans total)
Availability    Extremely rare
Special Rules Spacecraft, Reinforced Hull

 

I'd give 1 for each Barracks component IF the ship is equipped with an Invasion Bridge.
Or else 1 Devourer should take the space of a full Fury/Shark/Starhawk squadron in a (carrier) launch bay.


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#17 Errant Knight

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:42 PM

Nice job.  Still, let me play the devil's advocate and question the stats.  Your hard work deserves a fair evaluation.

 

The tactical speed of a Hephaestus Ore Carrier is 5.  A Rhino's is 15.  Can something that moves 10 even fly?  I like your cruise speeds.  It should be fast enough to seem like an aircraft, but slow enough to rationalize the invention of Thunderhawks and other landing craft smaller than the Devourer.

 

The maneuverability of a Halo Barge is -20.  This baby could probably carry a couple Halo Barges.  At the same time, you don't want something a competent pilot crashes in a light breeze.

 

Size.  Yeah.  I don't think the books go over Massive, and everything bigger than a Rhino is massive.  So, Massive.

 

I'm good with your armor, crew, availability, and special rules.  Do you really think it only carries a battalion?  I'm looking at the scale there and it strikes me it would carry several times as many people as a wide-bodied jet on a single level, and it has two levels.  I'm thinking at least 3,000.  Then again, maybe it carries a battalion and all its supporting units.

 

And I'm really not sure about the number in a squadron.  You have suggested 1.  I feel there should be more, but the things is so big...



#18 BaronIveagh

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 09:02 AM

I might point out that in fluff they require a unique launch bay carried by a Cetaceus class troop transport that basically consists of a rack of these exposed to space with no armor or covering. 

 

Cetaceus Launch Bay

 

Space 5, Power 5

 

Allows the ship to transport 27 Devourer class drop ships. 

 

Exposed: This launch bay counts as an Exposed component

 

Too Big to Hide:  Any successful attempt to preform a Focused Augery automatically reveals this componenet

 

Massive: Reduce the ship's base speed by 1 and Manuverablity by 10

 

Structural limitations: This componenet replaces any cargo bays that a ship may be equipped with.



#19 Errant Knight

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 09:54 AM

Thanks for that update Baronlveagh.  Any idea how many troops one of these Cetaceous ships carries?  I would think that there's no need to be able to put down its entire complement in a single lift, and 27 Devourers can land an awful lot of troops in a single lift.  These ships would be good for third and fourth wave units, after the beach head is more secure.  Yeah, I know it's armed, but you just wouldn't want to risk something this valuable in heavy fire.

 

I'm not familiar with lots of the novels but it's not like the average pulp fiction writer is a tactician.  I'd think that the first wave would consist of drop pods near the AAA emplacements, followed closely by small landers, such as Valkyries, with close air support.  Once the landing zone was secure, the Devourers would start landing troops.  The few novels I've read seem to have many, many transports in an invasion fleet (which is in line with the WWI/WWII naval feeling of BFG), so they could each launch waves in succession and keep the landing zone quite busy.  There is no need for a single transport to empty its complement in a single lift.

 

Feel free to correct my misperceptions.



#20 BaronIveagh

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 12:13 PM

Thanks for that update Baronlveagh.  Any idea how many troops one of these Cetaceous ships carries?  I would think that there's no need to be able to put down its entire complement in a single lift, and 27 Devourers can land an awful lot of troops in a single lift.  These ships would be good for third and fourth wave units, after the beach head is more secure.  Yeah, I know it's armed, but you just wouldn't want to risk something this valuable in heavy fire.

 

I'm not familiar with lots of the novels but it's not like the average pulp fiction writer is a tactician.  I'd think that the first wave would consist of drop pods near the AAA emplacements, followed closely by small landers, such as Valkyries, with close air support.  Once the landing zone was secure, the Devourers would start landing troops.  The few novels I've read seem to have many, many transports in an invasion fleet (which is in line with the WWI/WWII naval feeling of BFG), so they could each launch waves in succession and keep the landing zone quite busy.  There is no need for a single transport to empty its complement in a single lift.

 

Feel free to correct my misperceptions.

 

 

http://wh40k.lexican...Class_Transport

 

It carries a single regiment, more or less, but since Regiment size in IG is somewhat fluid.... 

 

Each drop ship carries a company sized detatchment (this is confirmed inseveral sources, so you're looking at 80-250 men +gear like chimeras, etc).  It should be noted that most sources describe dropships that are smaller and carry the same load, so how much is storage on the drop ship is a good question, since the IG troops never leave the dropship following embarking.  Some sources state that a modified halo barge can carry a similar number of troops.

 

In theory, before a full scale landing, the beachhead would be secured by astartes and orbital fire.  The drop ships lascannons are useful as defensive weapons against other airborn threats, as air superiority may be in doubt.


Edited by BaronIveagh, 31 May 2014 - 12:20 PM.





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