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Developing List (subtype): Apex Predators


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#41 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 02:47 PM

You're supposed to slow roll with the shuttle, and flank with the TIEs. Your opponent is then forced to either focus all his attention on the shuttle while he takes a pounding from behind (where, again, Outmaneuver would probably be a lot better), or turn his attention toward the TIEs while the shuttle and Vader similarly go to town. Either way your opponent is going to expose a vulnerability somewhere, at which point you take complete advantage of the situation. I'd still prefer to take a Firespray with Recon Spec over those gratuitous shuttle upgrades and a third or fourth TIE, thereby adding another valuable element to your list - the ability to kite. 

 

Remember, slow roll your shuttle. Make liberal use of the 0 and 1 maneuvers, and if your opponent is stupid enough to come after it anyways, bite him in the ass.  


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#42 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 04:03 PM

Ya... been playing vader shuttle too much lately.  Would have mattered last game... this one: APT and Concussion make short work of the shuttle and not much you can do about it with biggs hanging around.

 

I prefer Firesprays myself most of the time but the lambda keeps calling and makes me a better overall pilot so gotta keep trying every now and then.

 

BH + gunner (or recon +seismic)

BSP + predator x2

Backstabber

AP

 

Solid with lots of threats. 


Edited by Rakky Wistol, 05 June 2014 - 04:06 PM.


#43 StevenO

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 05:57 PM

I've thought about the pretty simple version:

 

BSP + Predator (x4)

Backstabber

Dark Curse

 

Now nothing is required to fly together.  It probably is worse of than BSP + VI (x3) and Howlrunner version of the high PS swarm.



#44 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 01:44 AM

How about this:

38 Kath Scarlet
6 Adv. Proton Torpedo
3 Push the Limit
3 Recon Specialist
0 Slave-1

16 Backstabber

14 Black Squadron Pilot
3 Outmaneuver

14 Black Squadron Pilot
3 Outmaneuver
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#45 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:29 AM

How about this:

38 Kath Scarlet
6 Adv. Proton Torpedo
3 Push the Limit
3 Recon Specialist
0 Slave-1

16 Backstabber

14 Black Squadron Pilot
3 Outmaneuver

14 Black Squadron Pilot
3 Outmaneuver

This I like... I would take predator over outmaneuver on the the BSP's all day though.  Kath is an excellent if expensive APT delivery system and double focus/evade to end the game is hard to beat. 



#46 StevenO

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:31 AM

Here I thought the killer APT delivery system involves Deadeye (fire using Focus instead of TL) and Recon Specialist.  Someone gets in the line of fire and BOOM!

 

Need to agree that Predator is almost certainly better than Outmaneuver.  It's less conditional and although the maximum benefit may less the average benefit probably favors Predator.



#47 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 12:25 PM

Well, Black Squadron Pilot is almost certainly the best fit for Outmaneuver. It's the cheapest generic ship with an EPT, and has the single best action for getting out of firing arcs - barrel roll. Compare that to the next two cheapest, the Green Squadron Pilot, which doesn't have barrel roll, and Saber Squadron Pilot, where there are far better options, not the least of which is Push the Limit.

That having been said, Outmaneuver also makes up for one of the TIEs biggest weaknesses, that being two red dice versus three or more greens. Have you ever flown TIEs against Interceptors? It's downright miserable even with the best of luck, especially when they're packing Push the Limit and tanking up with focus + evade every turn. TIEs aren't bad ships, but to get the most out of a ship with only two red dice you need a lot of them, hence the swarm. There's a reason why you don't see many A-Wings being flown competitively, and even less TIE Advanced. The simple fact of the matter is that even when modified, two red dice sucks.

Now there's certainly nothing wrong with Predator, but I think you're better off saving it for ships with three reds. It's a similar principle to Flight Instructor, which sees little enough play not only because it affects green dice (and who cares about those?), but because two out of three of the large ships only throw one green die anyways. The more dice you throw, regardless of their color, the more value you get out of re-rolls. It's simple math. The reason Howlrunner is amazing, apart from the obvious, is because the dice pool she's modifying typically ranges anywhere from 6-10 reds. You're obviously not getting those kind of numbers with a pair of BSPs, and, as has already been pointed out, you'd be silly to take four or more anyways.
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#48 Aminar

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:10 PM

Well, Black Squadron Pilot is almost certainly the best fit for Outmaneuver. It's the cheapest generic ship with an EPT, and has the single best action for getting out of firing arcs - barrel roll. Compare that to the next two cheapest, the Green Squadron Pilot, which doesn't have barrel roll, and Saber Squadron Pilot, where there are far better options, not the least of which is Push the Limit.
That having been said, Outmaneuver also makes up for one of the TIEs biggest weaknesses, that being two red dice versus three or more greens. Have you ever flown TIEs against Interceptors? It's downright miserable even with the best of luck, especially when they're packing Push the Limit and tanking up with focus + evade every turn. TIEs aren't bad ships, but to get the most out of a ship with only two red dice you need a lot of them, hence the swarm. There's a reason why you don't see many A-Wings being flown competitively, and even less TIE Advanced. The simple fact of the matter is that even when modified, two red dice sucks.
Now there's certainly nothing wrong with Predator, but I think you're better off saving it for ships with three reds. It's a similar principle to Flight Instructor, which sees little enough play not only because it affects green dice (and who cares about those?), but because two out of three of the large ships only throw one green die anyways. The more dice you throw, regardless of their color, the more value you get out of re-rolls. It's simple math. The reason Howlrunner is amazing, apart from the obvious, is because the dice pool she's modifying typically ranges anywhere from 6-10 reds. You're obviously not getting those kind of numbers with a pair of BSPs, and, as has already been pointed out, you'd be silly to take four or more anyways.

Issue here being that with Predator and Focus you have an 88% chance of rolling two hits(somebody else posted this math, I think juggler, in regards to Howlrunner rerolls). Yes, that leaves you with a problem against High agility ships. But High agility ships are not going to be easy targets to outmanuever.
A/E-Wings, Interceptors, Ties, and Phantoms are all great at avoiding outmanuever. Cutting them to 2 agility just isn't as good as knowing you'll get 2 hits almost every attack.
Outmanuever adds more damage yes. But flying to use it effectively is another matter. Outmanuever is best on A-Wings and Interceptors.(and Phantoms, but they need Vet Instincts much much much more.)

#49 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:41 PM

I see the logic of reducing dice but that would require a 3 AG ship to get outmanuevered. Awings, interceptors, phantoms, and defenders are going to put you in thier arc far more often than you slipping out of theirs. They still roll 2 evades or some combo of evades and focus and you still did nothing to them. This says nothing about them being at 4-6 dice with cloaks, objects, stealth device, or at range 3.

Predator is just easy mode. Roll attacks reroll dice. Consistency is the name of the game. Awings will rock both and beat face. BSP's can choose 1. Predator is often the better choice.

#50 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:06 PM

Few enough people use the named A-Wings, and Green Squadron Pilot has a lower PS than Black Squadron Pilot. Royal Guard Pilot may have a higher PS, but Saber Squadron Pilot ties, so that comes down to initiative. I've been told that KineticOperator is one of the better players on this forum, and this is what he had to say about Predator:

 

As for Predator, I find that with a 2 dice shot it is not very effective.  Just focus and shoot, and take what damage he provides.

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#51 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:47 PM

Awings are on the uptick big time in anticipation of rebel aces. Refit, test pilot, and Jake are all amazing.

Outmaneuver may out perform Predator on the BSP under some conditions but you're flying a tie fighter, not an interceptor. Best case scenario you get off what? 6 rounds of fire in a match? How many of those are out of arc in a tie? How many out of arc shots do you lose before predator's consistency starts to overtake outmaneuver? PS also matters, but is pretty unmodelable for this, if they are PS1-2, predator continues to climb. At range 1 with focus? Pretty sure at one goes to predator too under a whole lot of conditions.

Edited by Rakky Wistol, 07 June 2014 - 09:31 AM.


#52 Red Castle

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 05:57 AM

 

Few enough people use the named A-Wings, and Green Squadron Pilot has a lower PS than Black Squadron Pilot. Royal Guard Pilot may have a higher PS, but Saber Squadron Pilot ties, so that comes down to initiative. I've been told that KineticOperator is one of the better players on this forum, and this is what he had to say about Predator:

 

As for Predator, I find that with a 2 dice shot it is not very effective.  Just focus and shoot, and take what damage he provides.

 

Or barrel roll and still benefit from a reroll for your attack, or evade, or keep your focus for defense and still benefit from predator. There is a lot of time where you are better to use your action for something else than focus to attack.

 

I'm far from being one of the best player on this forum, but having a free TL (lite or full, depending on the opponent PS) every turn is a very good EPT that will see much more use than outmaneuver on a BSP.


Edited by Red Castle, 07 June 2014 - 05:57 AM.

I'm a french native player so sometimes, some expressions or meanings might be lost in translation. I mean no disrespect.


#53 Aminar

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 08:18 AM

Few enough people use the named A-Wings, and Green Squadron Pilot has a lower PS than Black Squadron Pilot. Royal Guard Pilot may have a higher PS, but Saber Squadron Pilot ties, so that comes down to initiative. I've been told that KineticOperator is one of the better players on this forum, and this is what he had to say about Predator:
 

As for Predator, I find that with a 2 dice shot it is not very effective.  Just focus and shoot, and take what damage he provides.

Which makes no sense. A single reroll helps a Tie far more than it helps an X-wing mathematically. And against low PS ships its a free target lock. To put it simply, Kinetic is wrong. The increase from 1.5 to 1.76 damage per shot is kind of enormous.

#54 Red Castle

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 10:12 AM

 

Few enough people use the named A-Wings, and Green Squadron Pilot has a lower PS than Black Squadron Pilot. Royal Guard Pilot may have a higher PS, but Saber Squadron Pilot ties, so that comes down to initiative. I've been told that KineticOperator is one of the better players on this forum, and this is what he had to say about Predator:
 

As for Predator, I find that with a 2 dice shot it is not very effective.  Just focus and shoot, and take what damage he provides.

Which makes no sense. A single reroll helps a Tie far more than it helps an X-wing mathematically. And against low PS ships its a free target lock. To put it simply, Kinetic is wrong. The increase from 1.5 to 1.76 damage per shot is kind of enormous.

 

AND it doesn't take your action.


I'm a french native player so sometimes, some expressions or meanings might be lost in translation. I mean no disrespect.


#55 Aminar

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:02 AM

Few enough people use the named A-Wings, and Green Squadron Pilot has a lower PS than Black Squadron Pilot. Royal Guard Pilot may have a higher PS, but Saber Squadron Pilot ties, so that comes down to initiative. I've been told that KineticOperator is one of the better players on this forum, and this is what he had to say about Predator:
 

As for Predator, I find that with a 2 dice shot it is not very effective.  Just focus and shoot, and take what damage he provides.

Which makes no sense. A single reroll helps a Tie far more than it helps an X-wing mathematically. And against low PS ships its a free target lock. To put it simply, Kinetic is wrong. The increase from 1.5 to 1.76 damage per shot is kind of enormous.
AND it doesn't take your action.

Neither does Outmanuever, which is the current debate.

#56 Red Castle

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:11 AM

Not the quote of KO. It was in comparaison with taking a focus and shoot, which take your action. Not Predator.

I'm a french native player so sometimes, some expressions or meanings might be lost in translation. I mean no disrespect.


#57 Sithborg

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:12 AM

But it may take your action to get the benefits of Outmaneuver.



#58 WonderWAAAGH

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:28 AM

But it may take your action to get the benefits of Outmaneuver.

 

An action you should probably be taking anyways, if you don't want to get blown up. I know some people who think that barrel roll is the most powerful ability in the game, and I don't entirely disagree.

 

Which makes no sense. A single reroll helps a Tie far more than it helps an X-wing mathematically. And against low PS ships its a free target lock. To put it simply, Kinetic is wrong. The increase from 1.5 to 1.76 damage per shot is kind of enormous.

 

I don't think we're looking at the numbers the same way. Statistically speaking, which is more likely to occur, rolling two natural hits or rolling three natural hits? Obviously the former. With respect to the odds, then, and not some arbitrary fractional value, which ship benefits the most from a single re-roll, one with two red dice or one with three?

 

Like I mentioned before, there's a reason why nobody uses Flight Instructor. Half the time it's a complete waste of points, because you're going to roll an evade anyways. The value of a single re-roll increases substantially, however, with every green die you add to the equation. The problem is that large ships cap at two agility, and the Firespray only has one crew slot. The same principle holds true for red dice.

 

In fact, the major difference in our opinions may be that you are looking at value, and not the appropriate statistics involved. When you're only rolling two dice, rolling a single blank hurts much more than it does when you're rolling three. In that regard, an additional re-roll may be more valuable (and let's remember that this is a subjective term) on a TIE than it is an X-Wing, but it is not statistically more significant. As I pointed out above, it's just the opposite. And, with respect to value, Outmaneuver actually does at least as good a job as Predator, if not more so. A single hit becomes considerably more valuable when it's likely to deal damage, which is what Outmaneuver accomplishes. If you don't believe me, consider the value of an Ion Cannon Turret on a Y-Wing. An enemy ship is at range two. Do you roll two reds and hope for more damage, or roll three and hope that a single hit gets through?


Edited by WonderWAAAGH, 07 June 2014 - 01:08 PM.

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#59 Rakky Wistol

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 11:31 AM

Took your challenge: 2 games, 2x BSP+ outmaneuver. Still not convinced.

Outmaneuver was better than expected and felt like it did more damage when it hit but there were instances both games where I would have loved to have had a focus for offense or defense. When you happen to get that magic r1 and can focus it's great but this is a tie fighter so dodging 1 arc for improved offense often means hanging yourself out there to be shot down by a other.

Outmaneuver will spike your damage a bit and feel punchy but only the turns when it works. Predator always works and gets better vs. lower PS. I can see the appeal, but for now, for me Predator is still my go to for a well rounded BSP.

Awings with PTL or Jake: totally outmaneuver. The extra toughness, maneuverability, and dual action (and dual EPT) work wonders. BSP's don't have that or when they do they are giving up focus, evade, or the ability to choose your own target.

#60 Sithborg

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 12:05 PM

In the end, Outmaneuver vs Predator will come down to playstyle.


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