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Sudden Pitfall is really annoying


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#1 DurinIII

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 06:26 PM

I set up the game. I quest on turn one with only Glorifindel who has a LOV on and he dies to Sudden Pitfall. I quit. No matter which heroes I quesed with one of them would be dead. That's the worst card to draw on turn 1 if you haven't played and quested with an ally. This ever happened to you guys?

#2 Bullroarer Took

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 07:55 PM

Yup.
Nearly all of my comments are from the perspective of the single handed solo player.

#3 PsychoRocka

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 08:15 PM

Yeah I've copped this before. Very nasty card, I do the same and just concede and record my loss and start again. Most times however it comes out mid game and just kills a questing ally. I hate the shadow effect even more....... probably one of the only cards in the entire game that once before I've just been like... um no I'm not just discarding my 7 defense, full health, able to block 3 to 4 attacks a turn for either player (Sentinel) defending hero because of this single shadow effect that just instantly kills him regardless of what enemy is attacking, his defense or remaining health.... nonsense... and I just pulled the next encounter card as a shadow card instead. I've only ever done this the once though and regret it as it is cheating but I just couldn't deal with that effect right then and there  :P 
Definitely an awful treachery card but I think the shadow effect is much much worse.


Edited by PsychoRocka, 28 May 2014 - 08:18 PM.

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#4 booored

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 10:12 PM

Khaz is the set that gave this game a bit of a bad rep among many gamers (present company excluded) as a game that has extremely frustrating cards, which you can not really play around as it only comes down to luck.

 

There are ways to mitigate the problems sure, but the truth is even if you have Strokes, Brands, Watchers blah blah blah it is just luck if you have them when the card comes out. I am certain this card is why Balin exists. He is a hard counter to this shadow effect and others like it in the Darowdelf Cycle.

 

As I always say, this game isn't hard it IS frustrating though to some players, as players can feel that it is just random luck doing them in. That no deck building or deck piloting counts.. if you draw the wrong card at the wrong time your dead. The problem is that with the player decks getting so powerful the designers need to speak to the future of the game, and there is not really a lot of alternatives to these massive setback cards. Anyway, this set is the set that really cemented that idea in many players and made many quit. Then HoN came out and drove off even more!

 

Still I think it is clear the developers have learn from Khaz and HoN and through the Shadow Cycle I felt that they have done a pretty good job of keeping the difficulty interesting with out having to resort to these bull flip a card die crap. While there are some nasty cards, none of them ruin your entire board in a single card flip.. so as player decks increase in power, these quests will get easier.. but never have a flip card die arisen.

 

This ever happened to you guys?

 

Of course and there are other cards that do this kind of thing. Turn 1, 10 Threat Location in Nightmare Mirkwood is reboot for solo players for example.

 

 

Definitely an awful treachery card but I think the shadow effect is much much worse.

 

Compleatly agree. The Shadow Effect is beyond stupid. What where they thinking.


Edited by booored, 28 May 2014 - 10:15 PM.

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#5 Rapier

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 06:15 AM

Well I agree the card is poorly designed and frustrating.

The way to play against it is to never quest without an ally also questing. (And don't defend with heroes that can't ignore a shadow effect).

That is quite interesting (in the sense that it makes you play differently from other quests).

The problem is that the entirety of that change of play is driven by a single card - so practically every time you think about the decision you think, it probably won't happen, and then when it does it ruins the game. Really you should play as if it will always come up until you've seen it.

That's why from a design perspective it would be better to have a much weaker effect (damage 1 questing hero on the when revealed effect; deal 2 damage to defending hero on the shadow effect) but make it a card that occurs 4 times in the deck.

Then on any given turn you can take the risk if you want and get chip damage rather than lost board state - but each time you made the decision you would be expecting the damage. 


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#6 Serazu

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 06:25 AM

It's the nature of this game, really... Having victory in your grasp and, all of the sudden, a SINGLE effect and everything collapses. It's all too common in LotR. At least, it forces players never to lose focus and work to have possible answers to... pitfalls at any given time, plus it indensifies the joy of finally completing a tough quest.


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#7 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 06:32 AM

First few quest phases are nerve-wrecking, yes  :lol:


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#8 Mndela

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 09:48 AM

Please, not remember it to me. Ough, how many times my eyes became O.O when it was revealed...

 

 

If i dont forget the quests where it is in deck, if i am first player i try to quest a chump ally.... ^^. And fixed problem.


Edited by Mndela, 29 May 2014 - 09:52 AM.

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#9 Raven1015

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 09:56 AM

Admittedly not the best designed card from a gameplay perspective. Thematically, I suppose it does represent the dangers of a pit suddenly opening up at your feet pretty well.

 

"Legolas, what do your Elf eyes see?

 

I see a group of oaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh...."


Edited by Raven1015, 29 May 2014 - 09:56 AM.

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#10 DurinIII

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 05:06 PM

Raven, perfect imagination there! I love it. Rapier, I agree and like your alternate card suggestion! @ everyone else, your comments are great to read. Thanks all for understanding.

#11 Mich the One

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 08:04 AM

The other problem I have with this card is that when it does not show up I fell my quest was just lucky and a win does not feel truly earned. So on one hand I am happy to sneak past the pitfall but then again it is such a staple that the quest feels somewhat incomplete without it (easy mode, sort of).

 

And thematically it is of course sound to have a pitfall in a dungeon, but then again playing around it is a thematic turn-off... well, it does not really feel very noble to muster an ally exclusively for the purpose of making them the pitfall bait. It is something Sauron might do.



#12 Rapier

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 03:55 PM

The other problem I have with this card is that when it does not show up I fell my quest was just lucky and a win does not feel truly earned. So on one hand I am happy to sneak past the pitfall but then again it is such a staple that the quest feels somewhat incomplete without it (easy mode, sort of).

 

And thematically it is of course sound to have a pitfall in a dungeon, but then again playing around it is a thematic turn-off... well, it does not really feel very noble to muster an ally exclusively for the purpose of making them the pitfall bait. It is something Sauron might do.

 

I'm certain the easy mode versions would leave this card out.

 

Also on theme - it is thematic to have a pitfall in a dungeon, but to be honest, a one shot like that isn't really thematic for Lord of the Rings (which is more like epic sagas where the heroes slowly fall). If it only targeted allies that would be more in keeping with the theme.


Edited by Rapier, 30 May 2014 - 03:56 PM.


#13 ricedwlit

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 09:21 PM

I'm certain the easy mode versions would leave this card out.

 

 

This card is removed from Easy mode - as is also (from the same set): 2 x Crumbling Ruin, Dreadful Gap, and 1 x Dark and Dreadful.



#14 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 01:18 AM

 a one shot like that isn't really thematic for Lord of the Rings (which is more like epic sagas where the heroes slowly fall

 

 

Is it? Ma-an, we got a problem then... All those over9000 attack enemies...


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#15 Mich the One

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 07:01 AM

 

 a one shot like that isn't really thematic for Lord of the Rings (which is more like epic sagas where the heroes slowly fall

 

 

Is it? Ma-an, we got a problem then... All those over9000 attack enemies...

 

 

which you can work around by all the feints, spear thickets and other similar. There is abundance of cards and tricks to prevent or minimise attack damage.

 

Also, I say it is much more Tolkienesque to "defend your captain" with your life (chumblock) then to throw someone down the pit.



#16 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 07:10 AM

There is cases when you can't. And I think there is more of then than one sudden pitfall.


That's cursed table-talk, and I'll stick you, if you don't shut it down, see?'


#17 Mich the One

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 07:37 AM

There is cases when you can't. And I think there is more of then than one sudden pitfall.

 

yeah, sure there are. It is a card game after all and luck is a huge factor to determine the experience.

 

It all comes down to personal taste. I might be more theme-oriented than most, which makes me dislike the pitfall more. For me, pulling say a Mumak from the encounter deck is harder to deal with than pulling the pitfall. But the Mumak is within the climate of LotR. I do not cringe when my chump falls to an attacker. But I sort of do when I let the chump go first in the tunnel so he can eat all the traps instead of my main hero. It just does not seem elegant and feels to be outside the realm of the universe. 



#18 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 09:05 AM

When technically chump block the pitfall means that chump was not careful enough as hero is. And stuff. 


Edited by MyNeighbourTrololo, 01 June 2014 - 09:06 AM.

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#19 Serazu

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 06:52 AM

Sudden Pitfall annoying? Wait till you read this:

 

The Hunt For Gollum:  Easy quest, especially for decks strong in the questing aspect (mine it is). There were years probably since I last played it, so I gave it a try once more...

 

First game: No surprises, all went smooth, final scoring 117 (a high one, but I took my time).

 

From then on, the "fun" begins...

 

Second game: All under control, dominating board presence and then Pursued by the Shadow + Massing at Night + the second Pursued by the Shadow for an instant 16 raise to threat. No Test of Will at hand, game over. I laughed hard.

 

Third game: As above, all under control, dominating board presence with Gladden Fields and the Hunters at the staging area and no clues in play. I reveal the Crows. Surge. Signs of Gollum. Signs of Gollum. Signs of Gollum. Hunters from Mordor. The Eaves of Mirkwood. The West Bank. Before revealing the Crows, the threat was 5. It instantly became 25. Never before do I remember a threat so high in the staging area. All enemies engaged. "No matter", I thought, "I'll kill the first Hunters now and the second ones in the next round. What's important is to keep them away from the staging area". Shadow effect on one of the Hunters: return them to the staging area after their attack resolves. No Hasty Stroke at hand. Game over next turn due to high threat.

 

An important detail: in the first case I had a Hasty Stroke in hand, but not a Test of Will. In the second case exactly the opposite.

 

:angry:

 

Go tell me about Sudden Pitfall...






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