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Why a DH second Edition?


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#1 kelius

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 07:58 AM

I know this topic has been covered before, and naysayers are ruthlessly criticized by FFG loyalists but I have something to say and then I will give FFG one final one finger salute.

 

People say the new rules are better, that may be true but it is a matter of opinion. I don't think they are better but they are different. They certainly rely more on miniatures and a whole assortment of accessories which I am sure FFG will be more than happy to sell to us. As a matter of fact I am positive that this is the whole reason for the second edition.

 

THEY PULLED THE SAME STUNT WITH WARHAMMER FANTASY!

 

I love the war hammer universe, both the fantasy and 40K, but I am done being fleeced for my cash by FFG.

 

I let them get away with their cheesy behavior when they released all the 40k rpg's as separate books when it should have been one unified rule system for all the lines: DH, RT, OW, DW, etc, but the books were so well done and I love the setting so much I let it slide.

 

NOT THIS TIME!

 

Wizards of the Coast pulled the same stunt with D&D 4th edition, and their fan base is still punishing them for it.

 

FFG, you have betrayed the trust of your customers all to make a buck. There is only one price for betrayal, and that is...HAH! Scared you didn't I?  I will not give you the same punishment that the emperor visits upon traitors, but for a money grubbing business it is almost as bad...I wont be handing you my money anymore. Perhaps enough other people will have the sense to do the same as me. Then your company will die the slow death of all businesses that make huge mistakes.

 

I am done with you.



#2 cps

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 08:38 AM

4/10

 

Try to draw it out and don't rush into the D&D4E false parallels in the OP. You did nail the wounded sense of betrayal though, so props there.


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#3 Adeptus Advocatus

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 01:23 PM

OP, your post shows a blatant disregard of both common sense and a basic understanding of how game and book publishing works, both logistically and as a business. 

 

TL;DR:  "What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God" the Emperor "have mercy on your soul."


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#4 Morangias

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 02:04 PM

8fc3162d32c7e051f086e0b5b18c443365deb689

 

In either case, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

This coming from a guy who isn't exactly itching to buy 2e, for various reasons.


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There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

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#5 Adeptus-B

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 02:09 PM

People say the new rules are better, that may be true but it is a matter of opinion. I don't think they are better but they are different. They certainly rely more on miniatures and a whole assortment of accessories which I am sure FFG will be more than happy to sell to us. As a matter of fact I am positive that this is the whole reason for the second edition.

 

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that the new rules 'rely more on miniatures' than the DH1 rules (not least of all because the final DH2 rules aren't out yet, and what we do know of them is that they are heavily based on Only War, which is no more mini-reliant than any other WH40KRP game) but your point that FFG will be selling WH40KRP minis is wildly inaccurate. FFG (and other liscensees of WH40K intellectual property) are contractually forbidden from putting out miniatures that might compete with official Citadel miniatures (that's why the Relic board game, for instance, uses 'busts' of characters as counters instead of true miniatures).

 

'Why a DH Second Edition?' Because DH1 was the first game in the WH40KRP line, and as such was predictably filled with bugs and glitches that have been refined throughout the later games, to the point that it now feels a bit clunky and outdated. So, an updating of the popular WH40KRP 'flagship' game is pretty much common sense, in my opinion.


Edited by Adeptus-B, 28 May 2014 - 02:11 PM.

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#6 Snowman0147

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 06:59 PM

Glad I am not the only one calling out the OP dumb.  Seriously OP just whine some more because my wine glass isn't full yet.

 

Seriously though in a business you need to make product in order to sell.  If you don't make product you don't get to sell.  If you don't sell you don't make money.  If you don't make money you go out of business.  That is what companies do.  They try to make money in order to survive.  Now given Fantasy Flight is doing a labor of love, but still it is business.  Not everyone wants to get a dark heresy book and so from time to time game companies have to make new editions in order to get that spark back.  It helps garner up more business.



#7 GreyLord

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 01:42 AM

I think maybe the OP only played the first beta?

 

Which some viewed as FFG doing the same as WHFRP (their version which really was a different game using the WHFRP name to push it as some would see it, or as some would say WotC made 4e a completely different game using the D&D name to push the different game).

 

I can actually understand why this infuriates people, as many see these types of actions as only using the name to push something that wasn't the original game to begin with.

 

Not that I agree always with that sentiment, but I completely understand why people would be infuriated with it.

 

Seeing as what ACTUALLY happened and how the game is basically the same game as WH40K RP has been and has evolved slowly in regards to BC and OW...with a few minor tweaks...I can only guess the OP is going off the first beta instead of the second beta.

 

I personally was probably going to buy 2.0 either way, but whereas if it was more like the first beta I'd have only bought one book out of curiousity most likely, I'm probably going to buy several now (I have a table of players if I decide to play it, have to have at least 2 or 3 to go around).



#8 kelius

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 01:45 PM

I have seen only the first beta, but from what I have read here in the forums people say that the final version is not much different.

 

I was not only referring to miniatures but also to 'game accessories' like cards and chips and such, the kind of lame things they did with the newest version of WH Fantasy. SUPER LAME!

 

I understand how publishing works and I understand business. Very well actually.

 

If FFG were coming out with a new edition that unified all the rules from ALL the WH40K lines, made the system somewhat backward compatible with the older books, and kept the feel of the game more like an RPG instead of some other Frankenstein concoction like they did with WH fantasy, then I would have applauded them.

 

From what I know, that is not what they did.

 

As for all the idiots on the thread who attacked me for having a VALID point of view, they can just...well, use your imagination...if you have one.



#9 kelius

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 01:54 PM

Furthermore, I am not a troll. Just a gamer who does not like what some of the biggest companies that I use to really love have done to some of my favorite games.

 

Perhaps some of my hostility is carry over from Wizards of the Coast and how they destroyed D&D, and maybe I will cool down and actually buy something from FFG again. Who is to say? I can't predict the future. Maybe FFG will surprise me, maybe they will redeem themselves.

 

Posting on this site was a risk, most of the people who are posting here frequently are hard core FFG loyalists who viciously attack anyone who does not blindly agree with their party line. I don't care, I had something to say and I wanted FFG to read it.



#10 Snowman0147

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 02:28 PM

What are you talking about?  They made it to Only War rules set.  It is completely different from the first beta.  In fact Fantasy Flight had to redo the beta because so many people hated it.  In other words they were going to do a 4th edition, people scream out hell no, and then Fantasy Flight did a 180 to get proven rules that had proven to work for years.

 

Forget about the first beta.  It is dead and the only the fans of the first beta are keeping it alive in some fan made forum thread.  Beyond that it is still the same rules set of Black Crusade and Only War.


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#11 Simsum

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 09:30 PM

Posting on this site was a risk, most of the people who are posting here frequently are hard core FFG loyalists who viciously attack anyone who does not blindly agree with their party line. I don't care, I had something to say and I wanted FFG to read it.

 

Rubbish. Half the pile of people that piled on you over your OP have been nothing but critical of DH2e. Kainus has put together a fixed version of the cancelled beta (which rally was radically different from DH2e) which is freely available from Dark Reign. My own group is basically playing a homebrew now. Almost every regular poster at this site has complained that DH2e isn't ambitious enough: it covers the same ground that DH1e covered, and almost nothing more than that.

 

And the fanbase - if these and other internet fora are any indication - was basically split down the middle during the beta. Half of us wanted something in the style of the cancelled beta, only a lot more ambitious. The other half wanted something like Only War, just much more ambitious.

 

What we're going to get is basically a slightly tweaked version of Only War. You may have noticed that pretty much everyone both here and elsewhere refer to DH2e as Only Heresy. And now you know why.

 

As for your OP, your only concrete criticism is that DH2e supposedly relies on miniatures. That is rubbish. DH2e is exactly as miniature-friendly as DH1e was, which is to say not the tiniest little bit. The combat rules completely break down if you translate them to heroic/28mm scale (the scale of the wargame). In a nutshell, both weapon and movement ranges are way the hell off in the deepest derpiest reaches of La-La-Land for the purposes of miniature gaming. Just like they always have been. DH2e offers not an iota of change in that regard.

 

...

 

You obviously have an axe to grind, and hey man, that's fine. But you may want to explain your problem instead of just ranting about seemingly random stuff that doesn't have anything to do with anything.



#12 Kainus

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 01:53 AM

Just a note, it's worth checking out how 7th Sea handled their edition-jump to Swashbuckling Adventures. The original system by John Wick was thematically fitting for the setting, but it's now definitely obvious that it was a system made during the 90's. I'm not saying that's bad, it just has a steeper learning curve for a contemporary audience. When the publishers released a d20 version of 7th Sea (titled Swashbuckling Adventures) they published rules for both the Wick and d20 system. Along with that, the original line of books remained in production, while the d20 sourcebooks focused on expanding aspects of the world that weren't previously detailed. I get the feeling that the developers did this because, ultimately, there was such a disparity between the two systems and they wanted to support both games.

This is not the case with Dark Heresy, or any of the 40kRPGs. Because, let's be honest, you can run Only War/ Black Crusade material in Dark Heresy 1e with little conversion effort. Since Dark Heresy 2e is a revision of the Only War system, there's no reason why you can't run Dark Heresy 2e material in the Dark Heresy 1e system. The only difficulties you could face would be Talents and Skills, and since Dark Heresy 2e has streamlined those from Dark Heresy 1e, it's easy enough to unpack from the simpler system into it's more detailed predecessor. 

Also, as it's already been stated that Dark Heresy 1e will remain in print, I don't really see why there's anything for you to worry about. You'll still be getting more content that you can use in your preferred system.

Then again, this is coming from a guy who considers WFRP 3e to be the best FFG RPG, so we may just inherently disagree. 


Edited by Kainus, 01 June 2014 - 02:00 AM.

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#13 LuciusT

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 01:07 PM

I have seen only the first beta, but from what I have read here in the forums people say that the final version is not much different.

 

 

I don't know which forums you're reading, but just to reinforce what Snowman0147 said, the final version has almost no resemblance to the original beta whatsoever. In fact, the most common criticism now leveled against it is that how close the rules are to Only War.



#14 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 08:09 AM

The dice/token/card play aid is a lot closer to what ended up being used in the Star Wars RPGs, to be honest - and, I might say, very effectively.

 

It makes for a very rules-light game, which lets you concentrate on the story and narrative "I've got a cunning plan" rather than trying to string together talents for that last 5% bonus, which a lot of RPGs devolve into.



#15 kelius

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 08:29 AM

Well, if you people are saying the final version is very similar to the black crusade rules then I am open to giving it a try.

 

What I would like to see is a unification of all of their 40k rpg lines. That would be nice.

 

From what I was reading initially, it looked like they were going to do the same thing as they did with the WH fantasy 3rd edition. I hated that. I own all of their second edition books, but I have not spent one cent on their 3rd edition. Not planning to either.

 

I apologize if I spoke from ignorance.


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#16 Snowman0147

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 09:04 AM

Well, if you people are saying the final version is very similar to the black crusade rules then I am open to giving it a try.

 

What I would like to see is a unification of all of their 40k rpg lines. That would be nice.

 

From what I was reading initially, it looked like they were going to do the same thing as they did with the WH fantasy 3rd edition. I hated that. I own all of their second edition books, but I have not spent one cent on their 3rd edition. Not planning to either.

 

I apologize if I spoke from ignorance.

 

Yeah it is now very compatible to Black Crusade and Only War.  It uses the same rules.


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#17 Adeptus Advocatus

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 12:16 PM

Furthermore, I am not a troll. Just a gamer who does not like what some of the biggest companies that I use to really love have done to some of my favorite games.

 

Perhaps some of my hostility is carry over from Wizards of the Coast and how they destroyed D&D, and maybe I will cool down and actually buy something from FFG again. Who is to say? I can't predict the future. Maybe FFG will surprise me, maybe they will redeem themselves.

 

Posting on this site was a risk, most of the people who are posting here frequently are hard core FFG loyalists who viciously attack anyone who does not blindly agree with their party line. I don't care, I had something to say and I wanted FFG to read it.

 

Dude, I know you aren't a troll.  I sensed that you were really angry, though.

 

Look, I am not a hardcore FFG loyalist.  In fact, I created an account entirely to call you out.

 

First off, it's obvious you didn't know what you were talking about, as your admission later in the thread proves.  That was obvious to me from your first post, however.

 

Secondly, your rage about D&D 4 and the changes in your hobby are good.  Use that anger.  But you can't just "Hulk SMASH!" every game company when they come out with a new edition or change things up.  Not all changes are bad, and not all changes are made to screw the consumer.  Just because one company does it, doesn't mean every company does.  You have to individually examine each situation.  And you hadn't here.  You just reacted from the gut and went all Wolverine on FFG without taking some time.  You could've come on here and asked and wondered about the exact same things as above without getting all angry and whatnot.

 

Third, dude, you claim to know game publishing, but then you rail and assume that they are publishing for the reasons you thought were going on.  And sure, somethimes what you thought was going on does happen.  But you assumed one thing, instead of considering the possibility that "Hey, this is an old game system that they've improved significantly in the past several years through their various products.  Furthermore, this edition will give us a lot of the rules we need in one convenient place, along with all the errata.  This product is being released to make them money, sure, but we consumers can also benefit from this, making this a win win."  Games aren't created in a day.  Do you remember the mess that was AD&D 1st?  By the time 2nd edition came out you needed 6 core rulebooks, a setting, three or four modules, and 27 issues of Dragon to play the game.  Seriously.  Because everyone wanted or needed all the optional stuff.  It had become so much a part of the game you couldn't run a serious game without it.  Sure, 2nd Edition AD&D sucked for some reasons (aimed at 12 year olds comes to mind), but the fact was that you could buy the three rulebooks and a setting and you would be able to play the game.  Anything that came after was optional and an add on entirely.

 

This new edition of DH might not be perfect.  Hell, it's probably flawed in many ways.  But to assume that it was made only to rip you off is silly.  It was made because they wanted to offer a better product to you.  Maybe they were wrong.  Maybe they are right.  Maybe it is a better product, but not as good as it could have been.  But they aren't doing it just to make more money.  Sure, they want money, we all do, but you don't spend hours and hours of your life rewriting a game system and running betas and whatnot just for the money.  There is easier ways to get rich than game design. 



#18 cps

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 12:25 PM

This thread is really perplexing. Why is a guy who came in spouting ignorant nonsense and then admitted to not knowing what he was talking about getting the kid gloves? This guy should be laughed at mercilessly for posting such a crappy post.

 

 

 

Secondly, your rage about D&D 4 and the changes in your hobby are good.  Use that anger.  But you can't just "Hulk SMASH!" every game company when they come out with a new edition or change things up.  Not all changes are bad, and not all changes are made to screw the consumer.  Just because one company does it, doesn't mean every company does.  You have to individually examine each situation.  And you hadn't here.  You just reacted from the gut and went all Wolverine on FFG without taking some time.  You could've come on here and asked and wondered about the exact same things as above without getting all angry and whatnot.

 

 

Nice subtle inference that D&D 4E was a cash grab and not an in-earnest attempt at making a better version of the game. Got any internal WotC corporate memos you can share about how to maximally bilk gamers out of their money with a game designed to screw the consumer?


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#19 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 03:55 AM

Even a basic look at the DH2.0 site shows that this isn't a WFRPG 3rd Ed situation. There are no counters, cards, chits or special proprietary dice (thank the Emperor!). The game requires miniatures as much as any of the other 40K RPGs (that is to say, not at all, but you can use them if you want, but you never have to). The rules themselves are compatible with the other RPGs (insofar as all the RPGs use the same rules base, even if they differ in the specific details). And as many others have said, Dark Heresy was updated because Dark Heresy is the oldest of the various RPG lines and the most in need of a new edition.

I mean I'd argue that Deathwatch needs a 2nd Edition because the game's too easy, but that's a different discussion altogether...

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#20 ak-73

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:06 AM

Even a basic look at the DH2.0 site shows that this isn't a WFRPG 3rd Ed situation. There are no counters, cards, chits or special proprietary dice (thank the Emperor!). The game requires miniatures as much as any of the other 40K RPGs (that is to say, not at all, but you can use them if you want, but you never have to). The rules themselves are compatible with the other RPGs (insofar as all the RPGs use the same rules base, even if they differ in the specific details). And as many others have said, Dark Heresy was updated because Dark Heresy is the oldest of the various RPG lines and the most in need of a new edition.

I mean I'd argue that Deathwatch needs a 2nd Edition because the game's too easy, but that's a different discussion altogether...

BYE

 

DW needs cards for Solo & Squad Modes and requisitioned Gear, that much is true, but how can a RPG ever be too easy? 30 to 40 Plaguebearers are quite scary to a Rank 2 Kill-Team.

 

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